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Red Pill TheoryGet to know Her Father (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by NorthEasternNomad

This post is focused on women whose relationship with their father is a healthy one, and who are comparatively stable emotionally (no obvious major warning signs).

Assuming this is the case, get to know her dad. If he has passed, let her talk about him. Then try and corroborate the information. You want to know the real man, in addition to her biased historical retelling. That matters.

If she does not know him at all:

Don't be surprised if she has little to no idea what she wants in a guy. Dad's the template, and without that, it's all trial and error until she forms a template later in life than most women do so. If she ever does. Be wary for sudden shifts in her feelings and commitment. She could decide the grass is greener at the drop of a hat.

If the relationship is unhealthy:

Be very, very careful here. Your relationship could turn that way. Fast. Unhealthy relationships are the template, after all. This is especially true, if she does not realize the relationship is unhealthy.

If he's an old school, stoic workaholic:

Frame is everything here. Be steadfast and hold to your frame. Any loss of frame will be seen as weakness or whining. She wants strength, fortitude and someone who just does what's needed without her having to point it out.

Even communication of your feelings or desires for the relationship can and will be seen as weak. She might not say it, but she will see it that way.

Her template is a Rock, the guy who walks smiling through every storm, never complains, never breaks frame and controls his emotions like the Captain steers the ship. Give her this, and she will be all over you. Lose your confidence or your cool, and she will see you as weak and swing toward other, stronger branches.

If her image of her father does NOT match the reality (but she adores/idolizes the image anyway):

Run like hell. This woman is fighting a deep seated internal conflict between what she knows as her template and what she wants in a guy. Really wants.

She wants the image of dad. The storybook version in her head. Which is, invariably, some mishmash of Prince Charming, King Arthur and the rich guy from 50 Shades.

But when she gets it...it STILL won't be "right" for her. Something will feel "off" or "wrong" somehow. Like it's "just not working" for literally no reason.

Because deep down, she knows what she has, doesn't match the template as it REALLY exists. Oh, she won't - ever - admit it. But she KNOWS.

Be wary of women whose IDEA of their father has supplanted the reality of him. Spin that plate, but don't eat off of it too long.

To sum up:

Get to know her Dad. The REAL version. And make sure you can give her that same behavioral template. If not, she's just a plate, and it needs to stay that way. If you get involved long term with a girl knowing you are nothing like the father she adores and idolizes, you have only yourself to blame when her rebellious stage is over and she moves on to an LTR with someone more like her Dad.


[–][deleted] 113 points114 points  (6 children)

As a quick add-on:

"There's something about a neglectful father that builds a strong pelvis" -- Patton Oswalt

I'm probably not the only guy who frequently finds himself with girls who have severe daddy issues. Never knew their father, he ran out on them, or he died when they were young. Those girls are always crazy in the sack, and why we fall for them, but there's also a biological reason they're like that.

Stefan Molyneux talks about this here when discussing epigenetics. Girls without a strong male presence sexually develop at a more rapid rate. They're more sexually promiscuous. It's an evolutionary tactic. Without a male to protect you in your youth, you need to develop quicker to find that male as a partner. Some other great revelations in here as well.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Interesting theory. Makes sense.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Thinking back...I've seen evidence of this.

[–]TRP_MushaShugyo 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Wow, that totally makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. I've been binging radio episodes of Loveline on youtube and 95% are calls with women whose father was absent, it's nuts. Will check out the link, thanks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I've never discussed these videos with anyone, so would love to hear your take when you do.

I'm split on Stefan. Loved him politically (free market anarchist) before he started somewhat Stanning for Trump these past few years. Also think he's borderline psychotic thanks to an incredibly abusive childhood, but the dude is wickedly smart and profoundly eloquent. Was divided on this series as well. A lot of useful information that really opened my eyes to a lot of things, but don't think all of his premises logically followed to his conclusions.

[–]mattizie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

About a year ago, I used to work a job with lots of time plugged in, listening to headphones, so I ended up listening to virtually everything he put out over 3 years. I agree with your analysis of him.

He's usually pretty close to the mark on a lot of things, but again, he's only as good as his sources, so there have been times where he (and almost everyone else) got things wrong. The latest example that comes to mind is when he was freaking out over war with Syria.

before he started somewhat Stanning for Trump these past few years.

I've got no skin in the game because I'm not American, but I agree that if you don't know what is going on, he seems to be making a mess of things, and generally stumbling about. But later, when you have more details, it all makes sense. Case in point, the omnibus spending bill: democrats were celebrating that a stack of papers 20cm high including funding for everything they ever wanted was signed and passed before anyone even had a chance to look through it - even Stefan was pissed and confused as to why Trump put it through - then it came out that because it's an Omnibus bill, and not a budget, Trump gets the final say over what money goes to what, so all that 1T+ of government money had just been granted for Trump to do whatever he wants (it's also how Obama got away with everything he did). Boom, 700B for military spending instantly, without even having to negotiate with Dems for any policy they may have wanted.

I recently started listening to x22report, and everything makes a lot more sense now. Trump did "bomb" Syria, and made a big show about it on Twitter, but actually many of the missiles were shot down, and it's coming out now that some weren't even armed. The only ones that blew up their targets were allowed to get through.

[–]coin_pwr 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Women without a male figure growing up has a bottomless pit of emotional need that will never be filled. They are also incapable of having strong emotional bonding with a male.

Because they grow up seeing a broken relationship, they tend to think that is what's normal and it carries over into adulthood. The best women are ones that have 2 good parents in a good relationship.

[–]daddy_edgelord 1 points1 points [recovered]

I've not considered this, but it makes absolute sense. Excellent post.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 43 points44 points  (1 child)

Thanks.

It's been my practical experience over the years. Especially, as I posted below, with small town women.

I had a really bad Experience once (or twice) with a girl getting everything she wanted from me and still feeling like something was off. According to her I was just like her father, and she could not understand why she didn't feel comfortable, as she adored him.

Then, i met him. And found out I was nothing like the emotionally vacant, distant dude who was over his "little princess" and the holier than thou attitude her mother instilled in her. One of them even openly asked me why I put up with his daughter, and NOT in the laughing, sarcastic tone you'd expect.

'Ware a woman whose idolized image of her father does not match his reality.

[–]Behind_You27 12 points13 points  (0 children)

It’s really good. I don’t have much experience with different girls and their dads but it does fit really well to my ex.

Her dad was like the alpha in the group. He didn’t speak a lot but when he did say something, everyone had to follow. He always ordered stuff to do and everyone listened to him. He even had a rough tone regarding his wife. Mostly he blamed her on doing stuff not that smart.

I came from a totally different background. My parents thought me equality in relationships. Support goes in both ways and all that stuff. I kinda wanted that. It was clear that this won’t work out. I didn’t even drink beer and I’m not a fan of watching football (soccer). The only thing her dad and I had equal is, that we let others talk and listened (more or less).

[–]Zech4riah 63 points64 points  (6 children)

Also check out her mother.

She will most probably look the same in couple of years.

[–]U-94 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Oh man. Every hot girl I knew back in the day with a fat mom have aged exactly in that manner. Pure disaster.

[–]WelfareWarriorZ 11 points12 points  (0 children)

More of gene profiling. Very important imo

[–]BigGreekMike 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is the most important of anything

[–]Just2UpvoteU 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What about the fatties that have a skinny mom with fake tits?

[–]Zech4riah 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fake tits aren't genetically expressed and therefore can't be passed down the line without daughter taking the same operation as the mother.

[–]a_desert_creature 31 points32 points  (9 children)

This is so spot on. Fathers set the shape of what women think men should be. If you're long-term minded it is essential to get to know the man.

Corollary to that, I typically won't get serious with a girl who has nothing good to say about her father, or doesn't know him. There's just too much baggage there to build a strong committed pair bond relationship.

What you said about about keeping frame with the daughter of a strong working man has been true for every one of the (albeit few) relationships I've had with these women. Once you've been together for a while you're allowed to make a few mistakes here and there, but otherwise it can be absolutely exhausting if you're not naturally the strong frame type. In these situations you have to decide if it's worth the work to keep up the facade, or if you'd be better served putting the effort into changing yourself into that kind of man.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 7 points8 points  (8 children)

I've learned to change myself to be stronger and more stoic. It's hard, it takes discipline and it requires focus in the moment to intercept that stimulus/reaction pairing.

But it's worth it. It helped me gain confidence and grow. And as a result of that growth, to hold onto a good LTR partners with a solid head on her shoulders, a successful career and a reasonable expectation from a man (most of the time).

Neither of us is perfect. Buts I've seen worse. By far. It's been a challenge, but it's been worth it, too. Both in keeping her and in terms of personal growth resulting from my changes.

And I owe some of that to stumbling onto TRP. If I hadn't learned about Frame and many of the tips here when I did, I think this relationship might have ended. Badly.

[–]a_desert_creature 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I'm still working on this and I think it's one of the reasons my current 3.5 year relationship has fallen apart.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

It's tough.

I was indulged as a child. Given too much attention for whining over hurts, and not enough for good performance. (God that hurts to admit). This isn't an excuse; just an explanation.

I am overcoming that background now, with time and effort. But it's hard. I'm learning to hold frame, and actively studying Stoicism. It helps.

Men aren't raised to be men in America, any longer. We are raised to be soft, politically correct, bleeding heart shadows thereof. And then the women who encourage us to be raised that way, turn their backs from the result and ask "Where have all the real men gone?"

TRP is helping to bring them back. And I'm trying to learn and apply the lessons I have learned, through the lens of TRP and my own life.

[–]IamJonSnow22 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Love this man. Good on you for taking the necessary steps to become a better person. Its a damn shame that society is raising men into believing masculinity is something to be looked down upon.

[–]DIV_redpiller 1 point2 points  (0 children)

its single mothers that are destroying the male child..........oddly by all their man bashing they create the very men they cannot stand...ironic

[–]TheTrenTrannyTrain 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Can you elaborate a bit on how you change yourself to be more stoic and stronger? I find that I can get A&A at the drop of a hat, but stoic isn't my forte.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

It helps if i dont "expect" outcomes. Or if i separate my expectations from feelings.

Take life as it comes. Without expecting anything other than what you get in the moment. And whatever that is, make your peace with it, do what needs to be done and move on.

A lot of people weigh every moment as it exists, with the moment as they would like it to be, in their ideal world. And when the two do not match up - and they rarely do - it fosters misery and anxiety. Live in the moment as it exists, expect nothing from it and do what needs doing without complaint or hesitation.

[–]TheTrenTrannyTrain 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I see, you define being stoic as more of "living in the moment" and not worry about what comes next. I was thinking more in terms of showing no emotions and being a straight face, which I find hard to do as I enjoy the company of women.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Being in the moment helps me face it straight faced and without undue emotional reaction. Keep expectations at Bay and accept each moment as it really exists.

[–]SeamusAwl 33 points34 points  (1 child)

Get to know her Dad. The REAL version. And make sure you can give her that same behavioral template.

I can confirm this is true. My wife gets excited when she sees me do stuff around the house because my FIL is that way. If there was something that needed doing, he just whips out his tools and does it. If I am doing something I enjoy that she perceives as having no value to the family, bitchiness. But I don't care, I am going to do it anyway because it has value to me.

Also, I am a father of girls. I make it a point to show them what a man should be like and to do my best to raise them to be high quality women, capable of finding a high quality man to marry. They are not going to be like their mother and marry a manchild from the get go.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

You sound like a stand-up guy yourself.

One of the hardest things that faced in life, was admitting that some things I was into spending time on are just shit wastes of it.

Still, everyone needs down time. So long as you are neglectful of real needs, it should be ok.

[–]WelfareWarriorZ 50 points51 points  (10 children)

That Awkward moment you realize you have only dated women who have no father figure (ie. deceased or divorced) or with a shaky relationship at best. The grass always ended up being greener for all of them. Thanks for the alternate mental angle you provided here OP.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 36 points37 points  (6 children)

Glad to shed some light.

My own mother never knew her dad. Had horrible relationship with her foster father. Never saw him as Dad.

She is 58...and the grass is STILL always greener somewhere else. Always. She left a good man in my father. Then, two abusive men. Then another really great husband, who gave her everything.

She was "bored."

Her accusing my father if infidelity her whole life, it turned out, was a desperate attempt to justify her own. When she left her last husband after cheating for six months with her sister's live in boyfriend...that was it for me.

I tell people my mom is dead now, if they ask. I don't associate with people like her.

[–]WelfareWarriorZ 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Damn bro, that's tough to even read. I cant imagine that. Sorry that you went through it. But its refreshing that you made sense of it and were able to see through the BS to stop associating with her.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Thanks.

Hard as it was to admit my own mother was a toxic presence, it was also the final clue in all of the above reasoning. So, a very trying lesson. But a lesson, all the same.

[–]THESkipp 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Damn. That’s a shit go mate. I feel for you.
Reading that makes me think of my own mum. We are close. She left my father who was extremely beta. Extreme. My grandfather is old school alpha, he has been my father figure since my early teens. My mother left my father and later re married what she thought was alpha who turned beta and can’t stand him now (still married, she needs him to pay the bills and provide which he does).
I’m the eldest of 3. Two younger sisters, 20 and 15. The 20 year old has the most extreme beta boy friend (worse then my father) and is on a roller coaster of hating him and loving him.

Your post brings so many examples in my own life, even with my previous relationship.
Thanks you this was a good post to connect the dots.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Wow...a powerful example of how parental lessons shape our lives.

I hope your sister settles things. Maybe learns to break with her template and form a new one. Its hard, but it can be done. Best to you all mate.

[–]THESkipp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It really does. Not intentionally but my ex partner shared a lot of traits with my mother, not the good kinds either honestly lol.
The red pill community has opened my eyes and connected many dots.
All the best to you to mate.

[–]U-94 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah my one GF had a dad and step-dad both deceased before we got together. The baggage there was that these dead men had achieved sainthood and there was a black hole of expectation for the perfect boyfriend.

[–]bdoguru 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Thats how it was for me for a long time. They were always crazy. Great in bed, but thats about it.

[–]WelfareWarriorZ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Lol my last exs favorite word in bed was no... I got a bad batch of crazy man

[–]thecarryone 14 points15 points  (5 children)

What if her father isn't close (divorced, have other family) but she grow up with a strong grandfather figure?

She dislike her father because he abandon her mother while still pregnant.

I got to know both and the grandfather outmatched the father in every aspect.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

That is a great insight. Very good point.

In such a case, learn about the male role model that "replaced" the father figure in her life. Good point.

[–]WelfareWarriorZ 7 points8 points  (3 children)

My exs grandfather was a great man (Vietnam vet). He passed recently unfortunately. But the man had no idea about anything my ex did. It was super fake what she let people see about herself and she was babied growing up. Spent a lot of effort on keeping an image for her grandfather to see her as. He never found out the shit she dragged me through, I probably ended up being the bad guy.

[–]PhaedrusHunt 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Of COURSE you're gonna look like the bad guy. But fuck it. You divorce the entire family. Who cares what they think of you?

[–]WelfareWarriorZ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You right. It just sucks when you see an honorable man see nothing about the fuckery that would stain the image of his angel. Idgaf i'm better off

[–]jwag1568 10 points11 points  (1 child)

On the flip side of the same coin, you should get to know her mother as well. I was in a LTR where her mother had cheated on her father, resulting in them getting divorced. Wish I saw that red flag sooner.

[–]coin_pwr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Their relationships with the mother is second after daddy issues. Mothers who make bad decisions, or go through multiple guys, often times in those cases a woman will mirror the same bad decisions for themselves. A lot of times we see these women making the same failures of their mothers.

[–]HerefortheTuna 9 points10 points  (0 children)

This explains a lot. My ex’s father was once a very strong man (power lifter/ trainer) unfortunately he was diagnosed with MS 10 years ago. Now he is in a wheelchair and needs help sometimes getting dressed, using the rest room. It’s a miracle his wife hasn’t left him but she makes tons of money as a VP for a toy company.

Anyways my Ex sees her dad as the strong guy, even though he literally needs help to wipe his ass. But he was one of the most positive, determined men I have ever met. He never once complained (lost frame) in my presence. Great character. I miss hanging with him to watch football and basketball and driving him around in his corvette.

[–]Godskook 7 points8 points  (1 child)

A supplemental point I learned the hard way:

Learn her Father's relationship with her Mother

How she sees Dad treat Mom is how she'll expect you to treat her, by default. If her Dad is submissive, she will expect you to be submissive.

If Dad vacillates between abusive and aloof, expect reasonable(and -legal-) forms of escalation to be treated as abuse.

Particular warning sign: Dad is given a "domain", but Mom has none. Mom implicitly has dominion over everything else.

Focus on Mom's emotions and Dad's frame. Ask yourself, would you be happy living that man's life? Would you choose it for yourself?

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nailed it. This is spot on, solid advice.

[–]PhaedrusHunt 6 points7 points  (0 children)

More important: get to know her mom and make sure she's not a land whale. Or a bitch.

[–]Stationarity 3 points4 points  (1 child)

A friend of mine would befriend the grandparents....they would tattle on the girl, because they liked others knowing how the parents were screwing it up, not listening to them.

[–]Ananonguy88 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Girls I had relationships with had fathers:

My BPD LTR - betabucks father with alcohol abuse problems, workaholic but still a pathetic emotional crybaby that had to be emotionally supported by everyone around, falling in hysteria or anxiety from times to times or just crying and whining about life, job, family. Emotionally blackmailing daughter and surroundings, shy and afraid of everything.

My hot wallhitter plate - alcoholic father dumped and divorced

My latest plate - failure stay at home dad, unemployed, failing to find a job, relying on financial support of the mother, has some psychological issues she did not want to specify for me and also Hypochondriasis.

Every one of those was hell of a ride of course in both positive and negative aspect and ended more or less in shit. Seems like a pattern. Should I feel disturbed that only such girls fall for me, or maybe I am the one subconsciously detecting such girls?

As I had shit relationship with my mother, maybe I'm also not sure what I'm looking for in a woman. Trials and errors as well.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You could be onto something with forming your own templates there...with my shit mom, that could explain a lot of my early relationship disasters...which mirror your own experiences pretty closely. Right up to the crap endings.

[–]LOLMUFFINLOL 4 points5 points  (1 child)

So basically find out what her father is like and emulate him?

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you're looking for an in road, I guess that might work.

[–]SpaceEnthusiast 4 points5 points  (2 children)

You could have gone further here. Your relationships with your primary caretakers shape a lot of what you'll be like when you grow up. You'll tend to bias your experiences with people based on how your parents interact with people. It's important to know who her biggest influencers in life have been. Maybe she didn't have her father around, but her grandfather. Maybe her mom's crazy. You need to know these things before you let yourself get too close to her emotionally-speaking.

Case in point. An ex of mine. Her father is quite an asshole, but he's really really good in some ways. When she was a young kid, he was the best to her. But he's still an asshole to her mother. Unfortunately, she responded positively to not only the gifts and affection (like she was when she was a kid), but also to men mistreating her (like her dad does to her mom). Her mother is submissive to an extreme, and it rubs off on her daughter a lot. Even though she's quite independent in mindset, she feels stressed out unless she submits. But there's also her older brother who became quite successful. These two always competed with each other. And it shows in her relationships. When we were together, she always competed with me in whatever area she could.

Let X/Y be any male/female role models she's had growing up. By default she'll be a bit like Y, she'll treat men like Y treats X, she'll expect to be treated like X treats Y, and so on. However, if those relations were extreme, she might go full 180 and do the opposite.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

That's very true. And a much broader view of the underlying influence driving her behavior, and her wants.

Thanks for expanding the perspective.

[–]Use_the_other_exit 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Wow you just described my ex to the T.

[–]kellykebab 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Fine points for the most part, but probably best not to emulate a love interest's dad. Be the best version of YOU.

If that's not her type, move on.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly. I agree completely. This just helps you see how you match up.

[–]PlanetNinja 1 points1 points [recovered]

Also meeting the mother can be eye opening and give you a glimpse of how your girl may become one day. If her mom is the dominant figure then the girl will believe that’s the way the world works and will try to take more control of the relationship. If you move forward into loving together or marriage a girl with a controlling mother may see herself as more of the head of household and will attempt to control you the way her mother controlled her father.

Good post OP

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks. Good points yourself.

You know...my girl does use something of her mother's tactics from time to time. She likes to make others approach her, and tends to control interaction through distance and a lack of action, making others come to her.

It's something she is working on.

[–]DIV_redpiller 0 points1 point  (0 children)

there isnt any good reason for a man to ever marry. NEVER

[–]GoblinKnight 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What about if her dad is not the "old school, stoic workaholic. There are plenty of other personalities, what recommendations do you have for dealing with a woman whose father is a beta.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Check the relationship between mom and dad. Others havave said it here, too, but ask yourself whether you could live his life. Because it's very likely you're going to, if you stick around.

Unless if course she had another male role model and forsook her beta father as one.

[–]drummerguy1423 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah this makes a lot of sense and I am glad it was finally brought up. My girlfriend's dad is a retired cop. He is the toughest, most conservative SOB I've met in my life. I hold my frame when I'm talking to that guy like my life depends on it because I will not be seen as weak in front of that guy. We actually go to the same gym and sometimes do arms together so that is a cool thing to usually shoot the shit about.

[–]xanthine_junkie 8 points9 points  (10 children)

Um, just thought I would drop a nugget of old-school father lore here.

When you are on your first date with a girl, ask to use the restroom - and figure out what cologne her father wears.

For hells sake, do not put a copious amount on!

Tiny, tiny dab on a single fingertip.. and put it on your navel. You will thank me later.

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points  (3 children)

Classic TRP overkill. The thread starts out with the entirely reasonable advice of learning about a woman’s relationship with her father before dating her, and by the end of the thread people are telling you to sneak into his bathroom and put on his cologne.

[–]xanthine_junkie 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Hahaha!

What's the old adage?

Oh yeah, DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU TRY IT

= )

[–]1TheProphetPhysiquiel 4 points5 points  (1 child)

This is a peacocking PUA type gimmick for guys who aren't strong enough to reel a girl in on their own.

[–]xanthine_junkie 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nah, you got to still do the work. This will just give you an edge, but you knew that.

[–]bdoguru 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah let me just sneak up to her parents bedroom

[–]WelfareWarriorZ 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I would like to hear a story about this.

[–]xanthine_junkie 21 points22 points  (2 children)

I am 50 years old. Married nearly 30 years. Where to start.

Just trust me on this one. Daddy issues, familiar cologne. Win.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's a great suggestion. Thanks.

[–]evergonitenitenigga 1 point2 points  (1 child)

OP serious question: What if a girl has a relatively functional family, good relationship with her father, and mother. But she has a history of cheating on her boyfriend, and history of some thoty behaviors in general i.e. hooked up with a guy she met at one party even though she was dating a guy at that time - to sum it up, just red flags everywhere. But then i also know a girl who grew up without a father but she has a kickass mom and she seems more of the relationship material one than aforementioned one. whats your opinion on this? btw both are my current plates im asking because you seem to know what you're talking about. Good post btw OP! thanks

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd wonder if the cheater was abused/traumatized by a guy at some point. I had an ex like her: perfect family, great life. But I didn't learn for years that she was abused by a guy, and her coping mechanism was sex. She had it forced on her, and she coped with stress, depression and anxiety by having it on her terms, whenever and with whoever she could.

The good girl here may just be an anomaly. But keep in mind that she may still lack a template for her ideal guy and her wants may change frequently and suddenly.

[–]SmilingWatermelon 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Something I considered but never really looked into. Your post makes a lot of sense and is concise.

Very well done.

Her father is the template as it's the man she looks to as a leader. This can be any man in her life she spends a lot of time with but it is what will shape her in her early years.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly. And that's key: any early male role model.

[–]demilitarizdsm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I got lucky in that my FIL has an awesome philosophical path of just always doing what makes you happy. He passes that onto his daughter with very little care for tradition, specific behavior, and he has always had my respect. I am terrified of him because hes an old gangster but it is all coming together about 7 years in that she is growing more realizing his way of thinking and, no surprise, the MIL is off the rails fucken crazy, controling, and the further we've gotten away from her both geographically and in communication... the better our family life has become.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I say this all the time if you want to instantly know the quality of a girl look for: a male role model (usually her father), if her parents are still together (children of divorced parents are statistically shown to have a more difficult time sustaining relationships), and if she's religious (girls usually subscribe to feminism for their belief system in the absence of religion).

[–]horacre 1 point2 points  (2 children)

My woman's dad is a weak, overly caring, sensitive guy who's under his wife's thumb. The household is dominated by the mother. What would you say to a situation like this?

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It's possible your girl will expect the same. It's what she knows.

It's also possible she has taken on another role model. Friend's dad, or parents, as a relationship model. Even - and I hope not - fictional models, from shows, books or movies.

I'd watch for clues as to either. Try to assess her expectations and where they might arise from.

[–]agree-with-you 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, this does seem possible.

[–]ZZZ21L76 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's a lot of rational sentiment here. But this info seems like it wouldn't apply to more nuanced father-daughter relationships. For example, what does a girl think about her father when he established stronger values and cares for the family more after getting kicked out of the country for crimes like price fixing or tax evasion. Or when that father was husband who kept a mistress, got found out, but was able to save his relationship. I think what I'm trying to ask is how one might replicate the frame of the fatherly figure when the fatherly figure is imperfect.

The answer that comes to the top of my head is to focus on straying from the imperfections, but that seems like a solution that could be a slippery slope to getting stuck in her frame.

[–]aaroonski 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Oh man, this is probably some of the most solid advice I’ve seen on here. Curious to know where you got a lot of this information? I’ve studied a lot of attachment theory and object relationship theory, and it’s absolutely crazy how much parents influence the needs and attachments of both men and women. It can be pretty complicated.

For example, a woman gets her feminine identity from her mother, but it can’t be validated by Mom. The only person that can validate and reinforce a girl’s femininity growing up is her dad. If the dad is absent, emotionally unavailable, or simply, doesn’t validate his daughter’s femininity, she will be trained to look for that validation in men all her life. There will be no strong masculine figure in her life to help her form her personhood in relation to the masculine. This will manifest itself in adult women as serial daters, women who have fleeting relationships, “the carousel”, etc.

It all starts with Dad. And if you really want to get to some Freudian fuckery, mom has a similar influence on us men and how we relate to women. It’s crazy.

I think it’s important to point out that we all have been wounded by our parents, men and women. What really defines us as mature adults is how we separate ourselves from these wounds, acknowledge that they were given to us, but it’s up to us to take ownership of these wounds. If you find a woman, or anyone who understands this, they are worth keeping around.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Much of this comes from practical life experience. Which, when you think about, doesnt say much positive about my history with (not so) lengthy relationships. At least for the most part.

As for the rest, i agree with you. We all like validation. Good fathers make you earn it, bit give it when you do, albeit only rarely enough for it to remain genuine. Too much validation becomes flattery, and that gets no one anywhere good.

[–]nothingbutcheese 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow... It makes so much sense...

[–]zealanderx 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah,

I straight up don't take women seriously if there isn't a good relationship with her father-

So he's an asshole- That's just a casualty of war... It's just a bad deal all the way around.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This seems harsh, but its a solid, sure way to protect yourself.

[–]Mick-Q-1188 1 point2 points  (7 children)

This thread is epically useful for me at this moment in time. I was seeing a chick lately her didnt have a good thing to say about her father. After we fucked for the 1st time she began to withdraw and I had to propose going our seperate ways. I feel its fear of intimacy, I have issues with intimacy too due to a psycho mother growing up, so this is another lesson in not ignoring the things discussed here. Thanks guys.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

That could be a warning sign. He might have been abusive or neglectful, and you are not her therapist.

Or, he might have been a good guy who was not overly fond of a daughter who insisted on the "little princess" fallacy. In which case...run.

As for your mother and fearing intimacy...when next you meet someone, if you find yourself immediately comfortable with her...beware. You have probably found someone who you know, on some level, is just like Mom.

Been there, done that. It sucks. Try and get outside your own comfort zone for a while, meet people who make you make small adjustments. It might be a sign they've cone from a different world, or background. Might still not be the perfect match, but it could help.

[–]Mick-Q-1188 1 point2 points  (5 children)

I believe he was neglectful in this case. And from the beginning, to expand on your point, I did feel a sense of comfort from early on. Luckily I have been working on myself with a psychologist and knew that this was a potential sign of me having an abandoner on my hands. I've been burnt before so I had my guard up sufficiently this time to not trigger my abandonment issues when she withdrew. Before I would have found fault with myself and play shrink with her, but I know this is a fruitless endeavour. I appreciate the advice about trying out women who make me readjust etc, ive tended to get the same types throughout my dating life. I see this latest as progress however, as I believe I have sufficient sense of self not to get the blues for a long time about it.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Sounds like you're making progress.

One of the biggest hurdles I ever jumped, was realizing that it was my fault I kept attracting such lackluster company. Once I got there, things improved.

[–]Mick-Q-1188 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I feel I am progressing. I've realised that it is indeed myself who is responsible for attracting these types of women. I've read that someone who had a neglectful mother, tend to go for the same type of women as mother in order to "get things right" this time around. I've arranged some EMDR therapy for myself as I believe im carrying trauma from childhood, which in turn makes me attract and be attracted to these sorts of women. Is there any particular moments in which you realised you had broken the pattern? Such as turning down a hoe who clearly wanted you? The latest one was talking about a future for us and really came on kinda strong now that I reflect on it. Shes a very good looking woman, but turned out to be like all the others 🤔

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I know exactly when I broke it.

I was all in on this girl who kept me as an emotional fill in between boyfriends. We'd started as truly great friends, but...progressed toward more.

She'd say she loved me. Would get right to the edge of making it official. Then back away again. Only to have a new boyfriend a day later.

Then one morning...I was over it. Clear eyed. Focused. She called me. Said she was really ready this time. Honest. I should come over.

I told her I'd think on it. That was more than five years ago. Haven't seen her since.

[–]Mick-Q-1188 0 points1 point  (1 child)

This one tried to friend zone me. Said she wanted me in her life for the long haul. Fuck that shit. How old are you man? Im 29 and I'm only getting to learn this truly as Ive been avoiding this whole scene due to my baggage which im chippin away at

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm 38 now. Took me too long to learn some lessons. But now I think on it, I was probably around 31 when I said my last goodbyes to that final friend zone chick.

She had daddy issues anyway. Idolized this false ideal version of a deceased father she couldn't reconcile with. It was bad.

[–]KimJongUghhh 1 points1 points [recovered]

This belief only works for small town women because they have other influences that help mould their behavior.

Once you start to live in the larger world like us city folk, the correlation between her father and her behavior is almost non existent.

You shouldn’t be expecting an LTR from the majority of women as the end game which also means you should not be worrying about her behavior because she is just a plate & is disposable because you have options.

[–]a_desert_creature 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I disagree. I've lived all but two years of my life in a big city and the women I've been with who still have solid relationships with their fathers have been better in innumerable ways to those that don't.

This is assuming you want an LTR. Fatherless women are still a good option for short term flings.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

All of this is true, of course. (You can tell much of my life was spent in smaller towns, as well).

When you do reach that point where LTR concerns become relevant, if they do, this might prove useful nonetheless.

[–]whereTheBoysKeepItG 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You made a typo, which makes this really confusing at first. It should say if her image of her father does NOT match reality.

[–]JJ3314 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Might just make more sense to not get into an LTR unless she has a healthy, positive, relationship with her father (who himself seems to be a standup guy). I'm not convinced it's worth it to see if you are up to the challenge of dealing with a given woman's craziness, or skeletons in her closet. If she has them to any significant degree it should be a no go.

I realize that since we live in a dysfunctional society this excludes a good number of women from LTRs, but it's important for men to have standards.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a fair point. And I agree.

On the other hand, though, it's possible to meet a relatively stable woman, only to realize later, you don't match up well.

Knowing her father might afford you time saving insight into whether you match up, reasonably early on. Especially if you can tell from early description of him, that she adores him and you aren't anything like he is. That's a good sign it's time to either relegate it to Plate status or move on.

[–]TheLonelyNoose 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Side track but I’m kinda new here. Why does everyone say plate?

[–]BloodRedPillz 11 points12 points  (0 children)

It's in the sidebar. You should read it.

A metaphor based on circus jugglers that spin plates on long sticks. Eventually the plate will stop spinning and fall, maybe even cracking. The same way chad (alpha male) fucks multiple women in rotation (plates), eventually having to cut them loose when they're at the end of their rotation (plate cracking).

[–]Sensei_Q 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A plate is a woman you are basically having sex with non-exclusively. So not dating. Some people have many plates. So they're having sex with multiple women since they aren't in a relationship. The sidebar/community info has a glossary for all the terms you don't know for future reference.

[–]Zachar1a 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Search YouTube for “spinning plates” and then imagine the plates as women.

[–]TheBlumpking 1 points1 points [recovered]

What about girls with severe daddy issues? Lost their father at a young age (death) or he ran out on her? Sadly, those seem to be the girls I keep running into.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those probably lack a clear understanding of what they want in a guy. Barring another early, positive male father figure, of course, they likely lacked exposure necessary to form a template of the male they wanted in their lives.

No fault of their own, it's an extremely unfortunate scenario.

Worse still, are the ones with a terrible father, who don't know he's terrible. You may have met one: give her everything she asks for, yet, she runs off with abusive, "bad boy" assholes who excite her...only to regret it each time. In a way, is a twist on the Dad Ideal replacing the Actual Dad type.

[–]LOLMUFFINLOL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mean if she lives with her father.

[–]theawkwarddj 0 points1 point  (1 child)

For the part where if he is stoic and a workaholic. It seems like this is the goal or best out of them all. How could you implement staying a strong frame? Personally I’d feel like I’m dying inside and my significant other wouldn’t know. I’d be miserable.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's an issue with my relationship.

My girl SAYS she doesn't like how emotionally closed off her father is. That she wants to know my feelings. But, any expression if negative emotion is still seen as whining (losing frame).

We have talked about this, but lately, I go elsewhere with emotional concerns. Friends. Family. Women don't care about our emotional state, as having to do so, undermines their confidence in our strength.

It's not right. It's not fair. And I think it's less true of younger women now, too. But for women in their 30's and up, it's still the case.

[–]Jacob_exe 0 points1 point  (1 child)

what about military

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I dont know that that makes a big difference. Its all about the lessons learned, and her idea of a proper man.

[–]h4nkz 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Good post. I'd like to add that the grass is always greener for every women. I once had an LTR with a girl over 2 years who had a really stable family. Her dad and her mother are together since they are 17. Her father is successful, stoic and cares well for his family. She still ended up cheating on me at the end, which was my fault.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hypergamy is real. Especially if a woman has not hit or neared her wall. And prior to that point, at least, AWALT. Maybe always, but for sure pre-wall.

[–]77and77is 1 points1 points [recovered]

Hi, I’m a woman who’s been following various men’s rights and male-to-male discussions.

I realized with horror recently that I have had many bad recent experiences with men bc of two violent alcoholic ones and some sex predators/creeps.

Interestingly, this made me realize that my response to these men (including a creepy individual I believe is a sociopath) made me wonder about men who don’t trust (and who have felt emotionally manipulated by) women.

Thanks; reading this discussion has been helpful and actually interesting.

I have a tech background (compsci degree and was a dev) so I thought I understood men, identified with them intellectually, etc. But there’s always more to learn; intelligent men are generally much more complex than violent lower-IQ ones, obviously.

[–]stonepepe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Never thought about this but makes sense. I'm saving this and will re read when needed...

[–]TimmyD80 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good advice. If she obeys her dad and fears him and serves him and you come in and take over that masculine role in her life she may continue and be good to you.

[–]miller211 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Damn... pretending that much in a ltr feels so unhealthy... wtf bro

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

It's not about pretending. I'm not advocating that you pretend to be like her dad.

I'm saying knowing her father can tell you where you're a good match for her. Especially relevant in considering LTR partners.

[–]miller211 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Oh, I read it as "ways to act depending on her father's personality"

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Weeeelllll.... technically, it COULD be seen that way. I mean, I'm just offering the info (tool). How you use it, on the other hand, is up to you.

[–]comcain 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Also bear in mind you don't marry the girl, you marry the family. You'll be spending time with the father and mother. It's better if you can stand them. I had a mother in law who was a control freak from Hell and hated visiting them.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Amen brother. Amen. Heed this, young men. Heed it well.

[–]DIV_redpiller 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No woman loves you, you are just the next one in line. Lose your job for 6 months or get injured and see how much she loves you.......

[–]urgassed 1 points1 points [recovered]

I don't know about this. Don't overthink it and try to emulate someone you're not. Just be yourself. If she likes who you are, it will work, if she doesn't then it's not worth the time anyway.

[–]NorthEasternNomad[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree.

This post isn't about emulation. It's about making sure who you are, us a match for who she needs you to be.