Red Pill TheoryHow To Generate Interesting Conversations Out Of Thin Air (And Never Run Out Of Things To Say Again) (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by 1Aghayden

You walk up to a beautiful girl and say, “Hey, I like your style.”

She smiles and says, “Thanks!”

She’s waiting for you to sweep her off her feet with your charming personality. But you can’t think of anything to say. So, you just walk away, embarrassed that you missed your opportunity to get a date.

Sometimes the hardest part of attracting women is thinking of the right thing to say. But it doesn’t have to be.

In this article, you will learn how to keep your conversations with women flowing – even if you’re feeling nervous. You’ll also discover how you can turn surface level logical conversations into emotionally impactful conversations that a woman will never forget.

Part 1 of this article will help you if you don't know what to say immediately after you start a conversation with a girl. Skip it if you're already comfortable with thinking of things to say in the first couple minutes of your interactions

Part 2 of this article will help you if you want to learn how to make your conversations more creative and emotionally stimulating.


How To Keep A Conversation Going With A Girl Part 1: Breaking The Ice


Once you’ve approached a girl, you have to build an interesting conversation out of thin air.

Overall, this is a skill that you’ll develop with practice. The more you put yourself on the spot by approaching women, the better you’ll get at thinking on your feet.

In the short term, you can make starting a conversation with a girl easier by memorizing a few basic questions.

Whenever you can’t think of something to say in the moment, you can fall back to one of the questions you’ve memorized.

Here’s a few examples:

“What do you do for fun?”

“What are you passionate about?” “Are you from here?”

“What do you do for work?

“What are you doing later?” (this helps you get a sense of how much time she has to hang out with you)

These questions aren’t magical, but they can get a conversation started: think of them as a crutch to fall back on when you can’t think of something interesting to say in the moment.

When asking these basic questions you’re looking for commonalities that you can expand on:

For example, if you ask a girl what she does for fun, she might say she likes to watch Netflix. You could follow up by asking what she’s been watching lately. If she says she’s been watching Game Of Throne,s you might respond by asking, “Who do you think is going to survive in the final season?

If a girl says she’s passionate about helping people, you can talk about how Tim Ferris’ book, The 4 Hour Workweek inspired you to start your own online business and it completely changed you life. You could go on to explain how that experience made you realize that helping others is one of the most important things you can do – you really can improve someone’s life for the better.

If you can’t think of anything to say about a particular topic, just move on to something else by asking another question.

Now, we all instinctively know how to hold a decent conversation, but when we’re under a lot of social pressure, we start overthinking instead of letting the conversation flow naturally.

That’s why it’s useful to memorize a few basic questions you can ask any girl you meet. Doing this will give you something to say so that you can keep the conversation going until you can break the ice.


How To Keep A Conversation Going With A Girl Part 2:The Power Of Free Association


Whenever a girl says something, you can associate off what she said to deepen the conversation. If you get good at doing this, you will never run out of things to say again.

If you think about it, anyone you’ve met who was particularly interesting or funny was good at free associating. They stood out because of their ability to relate what you said to something unexpected and creative.

At this point, I can pretty much make a girl burst out in laughter whenever I want to simply because I’ve practiced free associating so much.

Let’s take an example. When a girl tells me her name is Ashley, my mind automatically creates a list of associations. It looks something like this:

Ashley = Attractive / Wealthy / Generic / White / Ashley Benson.

I can then say something based off any of those associations, for example:


“Ashley? That’s a classic hot girl name. I’m not sure if it fits you.”


Me: “I’ve never met an Ashley before.”

Her: “Really?”

Me: “No, I’m messing with you, I’ve met tons of Ashley’s.”

Ashley Benson:

“Ashley? Like the actress Ashley Benson. Would you say you’re a Pretty Little Liar?”

Wealthy :

“Most of the Ashley’s I’ve met were really rich. But you look like you’re the exception.”


“That’s the ultimate white girl name. You must be from Scottsdale.” (Scottsdale is the rich white part of my city.)

Even from just hearing a girl’s name, you can use free association start building an engaging, emotionally charged conversation.

Of course, just knowing why this concept is so powerful isn’t really going to allow you to make a change in your life. Fortunately, your ability to free associate is a mental muscle that you can develop with practice.

I do two exercises every single day that have allowed me to effortlessly generate interesting things to say when I’m interacting with women. If you spend two minutes a day practicing each of these, your conversation skills will skyrocket.

Exercise 1: Free-Associate Sentences For this exercise, complete a sentence out-loud, then create a new sentence using a word from the previous sentence (You can also do this silently in your head ).


The universe has existed for billions of years. I am 25 years old today, that’s halfway to 50. Half of marriages end in divorce. Marriage is known to be a cultural universal which is strange because I read that monogamy isn’t natural. Reading good books is one of the best ways to improve your life. If you’re not improving, you’re slowly getting worse.

Practicing this exercise will help you to make creative connections naturally in all of your conversations.


Exercise 2: Chain of Associations


In this exercise, you’re associating singular words instead of sentences. But there’s a twist, you are specifically thinking of words that have an emotional charge.

Doing this exercise might look something like this:

Love – Sex – Virgin – Mormon – Cult – Manipulation – Salesmen – Annoying – Amy Schumer – Gross – Taco Bell – Obesity – America – Freedom.

Men often struggle with women because their conversations are too agreeable and logical. These men might have a nice conversation with a girl, but they don’t challenge or excite her. A safe conversation will never offend a girl, but it will also never turn her on.


Guidelines For The Chain of Associations


Your goal when doing this exercise is to associate words that provoke a strong emotional reaction. (That emotion can be either negative or positive.)

While you’re doing the exercise, don’t overthink it. Not every word you associate has to be controversial or shocking; it’s okay if some of the words you think of are relatively bland.

This exercise will teach your mind to make connections that are outside the boring, logical, safe topics that most guys rely on when talking to women. As you practice this, your conversations with women will become increasingly impactful.

You follow me on Snapchat to see daily infield footage (approaches, pulls, etc.) Username: AveryGHayden

[–]∞ Mod | RP Vanguardbsutansalt[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Related: /r/TheRedPill/comments/2n7j2t/how_to_approach_and_get_contact_details_or_an/

tl;dr - The first thing you should do when meeting someone new is identify and cultivate commonalities. The thread includes a ton of examples how to do so.

[–]2chazthundergut 140 points141 points  (7 children)

Good stuff.

There is a point where you need to stop worrying about it and stop trying. Let the conversation fizzle out, let the awkward silence build, and demonstrate your comfort with tension & awkwardness.

Having the right masculine frame is much more important than saying the right things or keeping the conversation going. Don't forget to speak slowly and stay relaxed.

[–]ahab_dies 28 points29 points  (1 child)

QFT. Learning to work silences helped me immeasurably. Looking around, taking in the scene, knowing they're worrying about the silence, then locking eyes with them for an unusual length of time before allowing smiles and laughter to break the tension and then carrying on the convo. That eye contact will always tell me everything I need to know. Great tension.

[–]masterbaterchief 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'm learning what you just described. A lot of women have blown me off at the start. It's easy to get discouraged when you fail so much, but you start to learn and tweak small aspects of your approach. You learn if she's worth continuing the approach through her reciprocity of investment. Is she being short and trying to walk away? Fine, forget her. Is she just amazed at your courage and wit? She is interested, now take charge. The former happens 10x more than the latter, but it's so satisfying when you succeed.

[–]odaklanan_insan 9 points10 points  (0 children)

There is only one way to improve your oral skills; practice. You have to practice how to talk freely without fear. Just like those entitled girls do. They never fear saying something weird, do they? Sometime their words don't even make any fucking sense.

When I accidentally say something that doesn't make much sense, or weird, I don't try to correct it immediately like I used to do. I just wait like I know what I said, and let her get my words together. Confidence is the key. If you fuck up so badly, then proceed to the next girl.

If you do this enough count of times, eventually you'll become a master like Enrique Iglesias in this video: https://youtu.be/rxk92Y9LavQ

[–]TheGillos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

After a long silence I like to pick it up by pointing out some small flaw in a complimentary way.

"Did you know you have a perfect triangle of freckles on your nose?"

"I just noticed, you have this cute little mud colored blotch in your right eye"

"Haha, did you know your nose whistles? You sound like an adorable tea kettle"

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Good stuff.

It's really not

[–]Patriot29 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here’s why I agree with you. I’m familiar with OP from curiously lurking the local RSD forum he frequently posts in. I hate to attack the OP bc he seems like a good guy, but he is not the embodiment of a RP man. Doesn’t look like he lifts at all and has the overall style of an average skinny college kid. This post might be valuable for someone who needs to compensate for their lack of SMV by essentially rehearsing a script to temporarily entertain their female audience in hopes of getting a future interaction. It comes from a place of inferiority and supplication.

I don’t need OPs advice, even if my small-talk skills were lacking. I am easily a top 10% man after following RP principles for almost 5 years. I’m jacked with low bf%, well groomed, wealthy, etc, etc. If OP and I talk to the same girl, guarantee I will spike much stronger emotions by doing 10% of the amount of work he does. He will go through the exercises laid out in this post while I could say something ridiculous like “hey sugar tits” and get a giggle out of it with total investment in ME by the girl. Not the other way around.

That is why this advice is bad. Don’t put on a circus act to get applause; develop yourself into a fine piece of art that people are by default curious to study. I’m not drawing away from the importance of game - it’s very important. But this type of conversational supplication game is suited to those with low SMV. There are other “game” posts in this sub that are much more valuable to those who have high SMV.

[–]UpperRedSide 34 points35 points  (10 children)

You must be good at improv. I watch stand up comedy, Bill Burr, Tom Cotter, Dave Chapelle, on a daily basis. They utilize the vast majority of the concepts you outline here. Internalizing these concepts will quickly lead to engaging, entertaining conversations. Kudos.

[–]CLYDE_FROG117 8 points9 points  (7 children)

Does watching comedy improve one's sense of comedic timiming and social repituare?

[–]askmrcia 11 points12 points  (4 children)

I recently took an improv class. Actually I took three of them and taking one more in February.

It really does teach you techniques on how to think and come up with something to say on the fly. It's pretty cool.

One of my favorite concepts is the "yes and...".

Basically whatever something say you agree and amplify.

Her: "I'm going to the mall"

You : "yea and you should go to store xyz. They are cheap compared to ABC."

That's just one of the few things you can use to translate to real world conversations. There's other stuff like how to avoid keep asking questions. Because the more questions you ask the drier the conversation.

So I believe watching stand up comedians or improv people can definitely help.

With all that said, some people suck at talking or simply not interested. So there are things that are out of your control.

[–]vullnet123 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've been thinking of taking an Improv class at a community college if there any night classes. I feel like it'll benefit my conversation skills greatly.

[–]ThePantsThief 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What are some other concepts? Never heard of the "yes and" tactic but I do it all the time

[–]askmrcia 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Other concepts is to be strong about something.

Instead of saying I like going hiking at xyz you say I really love going hiking a at xyz and I don't see how anyone can agree or disagree.

This kind of forces someone to take what you said and expand upon it either negative or positive. Either case it will get a conversation going.

Another concept is to put someone in a hypothetical situation. For instance when talking to a girl just say "we should go to Alaska."

Yes it's random as hell, but then you say "what are we going to pack?"

She can hypothetically suggest what to pack, what airport to leave out what things to sight see. Not only does this creates a scene but it puts the woman in a situation where she is visualizing you with her. That's an example, but you can make it anything like robbing a bank, getting hired into the CIA.... Anything.

So those are stuff you can do. And again this all comes down to woman being a good talker too. In Improv you need a team. You can help the team and be the main person, but your partner needs to bring her attention in as well

[–]ThePantsThief 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Amazing. Just what I was looking for. I'm a good conversationalist when I know what I want to talk about, but I don't have textbook experience with how to get other people talking or engaging with me on another level. Thank you!

[–]UpperRedSide 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Absolutely. At least in my case.

[–]masterbaterchief 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure. I like to mirror louis ck's humor and delivery. However, you can watch that stuff all day and still be socially inept. Realize that you must also practice on your own.

[–]MadSparty 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Check out Owen Benjamin yo! Red Pill AF

[–]UpperRedSide 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Didn't mention it in my first comment but I fucking love Owen Benjamin!

[–]TheLastHero7 93 points94 points  (6 children)

I swear ever since we've been quarantined the quality of content posted has gone up and up.

[–]hearse223 30 points31 points  (4 children)

Tbh I thought the whole purpose of the quarantine was to keep outsiders out, was it intended to be a punishment or reprimand to the community?

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

r/TheRedPill was quarantined BEFORE I Found it...

MAYBE I'm the exception, but good content finds it's way out...

[–]Skylights1000 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Reddit admins don’t like us and quarantined this subreddit to show they don’t support us

[–]Avertus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Punishment for speaking out the truth.

"To learn who rules over you, find out who you can't criticize."

[–]TheGillos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You know... I think you're right.

Thanks Reddit!

[–]babayega 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Agree with the point that you need to try and provoke an emotional reaction, even a negative reaction can be better than boring if you maintain frame. Learn how to tell interesting stories. Don't have anything interesting to say? Focus on that. Travel, say yes to crazy things, switch jobs, etc.

When asking these basic questions you’re looking for commonalities that you can expand on

I understand you need to get the conversation started somehow, but asking questions should be your last resort. This is rapport seeking behavior, you can look up why it's bad, but basically it shows that you are chasing her and giving her the power. A better alternative is to just assume. Instead of asking "What do you do for fun?" You can say "You look like you are into hip-hop/hiking/basket weaving/whatever the fuck who cares" You either get it right or get her hamster spinning.

Lastly don't be afraid of silence and letting the conversation die. She will either try to keep it going or just move on - abundance mentality.

[–]Neil1398 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Man I swear I’m glad I found this sub.

Everything seems to come at the right time.

Thanks man.

[–]the__aggressor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is really useful, thanks! I've been getting into conversations with women pretty regularly recently but they usually break down into standard watercooler chat instead of something that makes tingles, so this will definitely help. I really appreciate the exercises you provided!

[–]jbpostv 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Really like the one word technique. You can only memorize a pickup line but after that, having word targets can help generate an emotional charge. To have fun, sometimes a friend and I will challenge each other to use a short phrase, word or topic in every approach, usually something shocking or funny like it’s impractical jokers. Helps a lot with self amusement, focuses you on process over outcome and builds a sense that this is all for fun. It’ll put a little grin on your face up until you come to the topic/word/phrase trying to weasel your way to making a smooth transition. What are some charged words you guys can think of?

[–]VoxVirilis 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Really good post, but I stumbled over this bit:

Now, we all instinctively know how to hold a good conversation,

Do we? Seems to me this is something a lot of people struggle with. I would have guessed good conversation is a learned behavior; not instinctual.

[–]1Aghayden[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Fair point. What I really meant to get across is that we hold better conversations with people we are comfortable with, but we get stifled when interacting with attractive women.

I'll replace the word good with decent as that would be more accurate.

[–]11-Eleven-11 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Is there anything wrong with just walking up to a girl and saying 'You're cute do you want to go out this weekend?'

[–]russian_nigger 4 points5 points  (0 children)

absolutely not and you should

[–]RPSilverfox 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I’ve found this is sometimes the best method. Walk up, state your intentions and either score the number or don’t. In less than 30 seconds you could either have a date or if she turned you down you’ve wasted no time.

I like this post if your goal is to keep an interesting conversation going (which you will need to do eventually), but if on the street or in a coffee shop or something the in and out method can be successful.

[–]11-Eleven-11 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Right. It doesn't waste time and it creates a bit of mystery. And displays your confidence right from the get go.

[–]masterbaterchief 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nothing wrong with that approach, although if you work on holding a 5ish minute conversation with her you could greatly create more attraction. Work on eye contact, bust her balls a little bit. But if you have to start small, there's no shame in that. Remember, which is worse: getting rejected, or never approaching her because you didn't have the balls to do it?

[–]ZachMeadows 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It might work in some cases.

In my experience in big cities where everything is sped up, by doing so you look like an opportunity to 'do something different'.

But in smaller cities where everything is more 'slow' and social circles are closer, you need to get validation through conversation.

I still ask for a date right here and there occasionnaly though.

[–]the_goatgrrrl 0 points1 point  (0 children)

nah, nothing wrong with that, i can only speak for myself but there are incidents were ive decided that im interested in a guy, long befor the guy even talked to me...also, to me, it shows that you are streight forward, know what you want and you do not feel like convincing me that you are a catch...i guess this technique works with SOME women and SOME men but is not for everybody

I think being (the best version) of ones self is the safer way to go...

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Not bad.

But don't worry about running out of material. Make her worry about running out of material.

[–]russian_nigger 6 points7 points  (1 child)

good post, but if you really want to get out of your comfort zone just tell a girl she has a nice ass. two things will happen, she'll either smile and say thanks or decline you completely, maybe tell you to fuck off or whatever. either way, who cares. i do it all the time and mostly get positive results, not necessarily end up fucking them, but that's never my intention in the first place. i just like getting a reaction out of people. i was at macy's yesterday looking at luggage and this older woman (maybe 50) walked by, and i said "oh man, now that's a butt if i ever seen one" she started laughing and told me to "get outta here" and walked off. i don't know if this would work if you're a spaghetti armed dweeb, but works for me and i ain't no arnold either.

[–]masterbaterchief 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I've seen a stud do this. Hilarious reactions. If a girl isn't attracted to you in the first place, there's nothing you could have said to her to change that regardless.

[–]SensualSeduction01 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tangent: anyone else here submitting posts that apparently "go through," but do not get posted on the sub?

[–]ahab_dies 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great post, thanks.

I'll add: get a job that requires you to talk to a lot of strangers.

Also, practice on men just as much as with women. Conversation skill is a muscle you have to work out and everybody is an opportunity to do so. Not only that, if you can have great conversations with other men then women will notice and see you as high value.

A good conversationalist is much rarer than people think and it opens so many doors, not just in terms of dating.

Ask questions that start with Wh- words or How, these are open questions. Don't ask questions that start with Do/Does, these are closed questions.

If the girl finds you attractive and isn't dull as dishwater she will help you with the conversation.

[–]Vlagos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately these tips don't work in Arabic countries, she'll ignore the moment you try to start a conversation

[–]Warrior_King02 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Good post, however I've noticed that when asking questions the conversation turns into an interview. Usually to start things off I'd give a generic statement. I was talking to this chick and used this line which then got her interested in the convo "Nice Hilfiger bag, I'm guessing you're into fashion?" it was a simple line but I feel that doing that works better than asking lots of questions cause then it feels as if you're all over her.

[–]Vlagos 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Same feeling, I try as much as possible to avoid questions, because it feels like you're giving her power

[–]maverick9759 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Annoying - Amy Schumer - gross bwahahahaha

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 1 point2 points  (3 children)

In the short term, you can make starting a conversation with a girl easier by memorizing a few basic questions.

Try to ask as few questions as possible, ideally zero. For the basics like her name you can say "tell me your name". Avoid interview questions like the plague: "what do you do". Keep statements like "so .. tell me about yourself" in reserve but always phrase them as commands.

Attraction is first. Questions are for later with mutual interest in place. Asking standard interview type questions is for girls and losers.

The point is that most people don't ask each other questions like this, and certainly not on first meeting with no mutual interest established.

[–]randomTATRP 0 points1 point  (2 children)

OK, I see this comment now, can you expand on this? ...as it would be weird even for me if someone came up to me and commanded me to tell him/her my name.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The name exchange should be done at the point where you care about each other's names. It's obvious when you think about it. So not the first thing, but not too late either.

Establish a bit of attraction, pause, smile, "Hi, I'm randomTARTP" and offer hand for handshake. If she's so flustered she doesn't offer her name you can tease her about it.

Don't forget that these are women, hence establishing dominance is appreciated rather than weird.

[–]randomTATRP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! I'll put it to use.

[–]GastrointestinalRein 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This content is really good, i'll be a approach gawd!!!

[–]Shankar_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Solid post man! Loving the content you've been putting out!

[–]Camjd10 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mentioned free association and I instantly thought of my friend who, I believe, has a superpower comparing people to their fictional doppelganger. He whips them out of thin air and they always make the room bust out laughing; and of course, he's incredibly successful with women- I'd consider him a natural.

[–]OneInAZillion 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Watch Craig Ferguson (former late night talk show host) compilations on Youtube. That guy is a master of association and never running out of things to talk about. And of being charming etc.

[–]ScribeThoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At a more macro level there's a process of conversation which can be practiced, and it's applicable to so many interactions. With various tweaks and improv it's useful for sales, seduction, journalism, intelligence gathering, interviewing, speeches, etc.

It's essentially 6 steps.


Break the ice.

Establish credibility.

Ask questions and gather as much information as possible.

Make your presentation.

Close. Close. Close. until you get what you want.

[–]jeunpeun99 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for this stuff! The second exercise is a little unclear though. Is the purpose to just think of words that have an emotional charge to it? But by doing that, wouldn't you come up with the same words each time?

[–]delicoban33 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

May work if you are over 7/10. Not sure about 6/10. Well, I don't think that you will need this when you are over 7/10 already.

[–]11-Eleven-11 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Quit thinking about yourself on a ?/10 scale. You're not a woman, you're a man. Women don't rate men on a 10 point scale. Its either yes or no to them and there will always be someone that will say yes.

[–]MrCongeniality1 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Does anyone here want to get laid because of their improvisational skills?

Or do you want to go out and kill a mastodon and have her cream because you're the man that brought home the meat and pelt?

[–]1Aghayden[S] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

If killing mastodons gets you laid, keep at it.

[–]MrCongeniality1 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

This response makes me sad.

[–]Straw_Larry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Improvising seems less tiring. Also, why would I want to provide for her? She's not my daughter.

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[–]SemiLoquacious -4 points-3 points  (10 children)

Just be friendly with her and nice and do things any newspaper periodically would tell you to do and you'll succeed. Thanks.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (9 children)

Being "nice" is a sure-fire way to end up in the "friend zone" -- bad move.

"Do nice things..." Oh, you mean a classic "White Knight?" -- bad move.

spent 15 years doing that BS... waste of time

[–]OneHandToFapThemAll 2 points3 points  (8 children)

I know tone doesn’t come across in text, but come on man... clearly that guy was joking lol

[–]SemiLoquacious 3 points4 points  (5 children)

I was mocking the op. I was saying that's what his post was saying. There's no redpilled principles in there. Hence, the thanks i ended my post with.

Thanks op you faggot

[–]OneHandToFapThemAll 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I got that. I wrote you were joking because the guy above me shat his pants at your post. It was obviously not a serious post.

[–]SemiLoquacious -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I mean, you still didn't catch I was insulting op

[–]1Aghayden[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Maybe if you practice the exercise in the article you'll be able to think of a competent insult.

[–]OneHandToFapThemAll 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean, you didn’t execute your insult as well as you seem to think you did.

[–]mheyk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the interwebz is always conveniently bad with sarcasm

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

maybe so.. I was wondering it was a SJW just "tilting windmills".. Drudgingly.. lol