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"Communication is the key to a healthy relationship" (self.askTRP)

submitted by Heathcliff--

Summary: "Communication" is, for women, a synonym for "making demands". Women are used to getting their demands met, constantly; hence why they think "talking to your partner" about their problems (aka an ultimatum) is such a successful tactic. It is... for them.


In this post, I use the word "relationship" to refer to any relationship with a girl, friend, plate, coworker, or LTR. It will mainly apply to those in LTR or with consistent plates, but the theory is true for every woman.


So I'm sure if you've been on a certain entertaining advice subreddit any time in the past few years you will have heard this nugget of wisdom from a commenter:

"Just talk to her/him. Communication is the key to a healthy relationship".

Often it is in response to a post about a girlfriend who won't put out, a lazy or uncaring boyfriend, or the actions of a spouse that are negatively affecting the other.

The problem with this advice becomes very clear very quickly if you are a man. It doesn't work.

I'm sure we've all been in the situation where we have "talked to her" about a problem with our plate/LTR, and she has either thrown it right back in your face and turned it around on you, or she's smiled, nodded, agreed, and didn't do anything about it. Or she did, for a while, but quickly regressed back into how she was before you had "the chat".

I'm certain this is common to all guys who have ever been in a relationship. But why? Let me try my best to explain why I think "talking to your girl" about problems wont work and will ultimately doom your relationship.


"Communication" = "Making Demands"

When a girl "communicates" with a guy that she is unhappy with a certain tenet of their relationship; whether it be sex, his job, his behaviour, his availability, his hygiene etc, whatever it is, what she is actually doing is serving him an ultimatum.

She is demanding of him that he changes a certain thing in order to accommodate her needs.

If he does not change, she will leave and hop back onto the carousel. That is her bargaining power. Those are the chips she holds.

The demand could be legitimate ("you need to shower more you always stink") or stupid (a plate wanting to be exclusive, a girlfriend telling you to stop talking to a female friend). Whatever it is, she is threatening to leave if you do not follow through and meet her demand. "The chat" is a serious one, and is often a relationship ender.

The feminist imperative teaches us that all women are noble and moral, and in any kind of male/female relationship the female will always have the best and most moral interests of the couple at heart.

We all know this to obviously be untrue. But we are a minority, Think to how many white knights are out there giving in to every whim and demand their girlfriend piles on them. This teaches the girl that every time she needs something or is unhappy with her boyfriend, all she needs to do is "communicate" with him, and the problem will be solved.

She doesn't understand that her bluepill boyfriend is bending over backwards in order to appease her because he has super strong one-itis and is super scared of losing out on starfish duty sex.

I'd even go as far to say that the majority of women learn from an early age that making demands of men can get them what they want. Daddy always bought her the toys if she asked and never said no to her.

She goes through life thinking that "communication" is why her relationships are going well ("going well" defined as under her control) and so when some chump on reddit or a bluepill orbiter asks for advice she comes out with that beautiful line "communication is the key to a good relationship". You'll only ever hear that from women and white knights.

So let's now look at what happens when a guy tries to "communicate" with his partner/plate.


Woman can say no, bluepill AFCs don't know how

Him: We haven't been having much sex recently.

Her: I've been tired and stressed from work

Him: Anything I can do to make it better?

Her: No babe it's just me. I'll feel better soon and then we can get back at it don't worry.

Completely and utterly shut down. I'm certain many of us have gone through this script before. He made his demands, she denied. Obviously, she won't "feel better", and he'll have to bring it up again, much to her annoyance.

Him: You haven't given me a blowjob in a while.

Her: So? We still have sex.

Him: I like blowjobs though, I would appreciate if you could do it once in a while.

Her: I don't though, they make me feel really disgusting.

Him: I do (xyz) for you though! It doesn't have to be often.

Her: Next time I feel sexy, maybe.

Of course, as usual we all know the script. The blowjob never comes, she never "feels sexy". The guy waits and waits wondering when his girlfriend will finally reward him with duty-head.

Women are not afraid to say no to their partners.

The one who cares the least about the other holds the most power. In this case, the woman holds the power to say no. Women can be very dismissive when you come to them with demands, especially if you're the bluepill beta in the relationship.

She has no problem saying no to you because she is not worried you will leave her. She is secure in the idea that you will stay committed to her regardless of whether she gives in to your demand or not.

The other option is that she has no problem saying no to you because she cares for the relationship so little that she wouldn't mind if you broke it off (and would prefer it that way so she can call you an asshole to her friends later on... "broke up with me because I wouldn't suck his dick"). Or she's getting her AF on the side.


Girls are born with power talk

Women learn from a very early age how to powertalk with each other, they need to, the competition and bitchiness between woman requires them to be fluent. If not, they are quickly ostracised or labeled "the weird girl". I won't go into the definitions of powertalk here, it's best you read it from people who can explain it vastly better than I can. Women default to power talk (especially with each other), while men default to straight-talk (especially with each other, if not posturing). This is especially true in serious situations, like "The Chat"

Women use power talk as a way of telling you "no", "go away" or "shut up". They craft their words in a way so that you may even think the conversation was polite, or that you came out the winner. Don't be fooled though, she had you right from the beginning, and when you tried to "communicate" your thoughts to her, she just told you to fuck off in a very sweet way.

The reason for this is obviously because the vast majority of unplugged don't know how to recognise power talk. There is a huge dissonance in conversation when a couple have "The Chat". The two are speaking a different language.

When a guy hears "We need to talk" (itself an invitation to power talk), his translation is "this is going to be a serious topic". Hence, the man puts on his "Straight Talk".

When a girl hears "We need to talk", her translation is "a verbal battle is about to take place, how do I win?". The woman then puts on her "Power Talk".

The two are speaking different languages. The guy cannot read through the lines of the girls speech, he interprets it as straight talk. He accepts her justfications and hamstering as real truths, "she wouldn't be lying to me during this heart-to-heart, relationship defining talk would she?".

The girl listens to the guy whine with real contempt, and then covertly tells him his feelings don't matter to her and he should drop the subject.

Because that's how women see "communication" from their partners. Whining.


This is the third time we've had this conversation!

Nothing dries up a girl's panties quicker than a guy pestering her for something. Whether it be sexual favours or to pull more weight around the house or to stop being late for dates, the more you "communicate" (read: complain) the faster she will close her legs and leave you.

Women do not tolerate whining. Only children whine. Women do not want to date children, they want to date a real man.

And it's sad, but we have to accept it. Your SO, plate or wife cannot be your moral support. The more you show weakness, the more you complain, the more you admit you are "unhappy in the relationship", the more contempt she will show you. She will see you as weak and complaining too much. It will piss her off, and she definitely won't give in to your new demands now.

You cannot negotiate attraction.

No matter how many times you take her aside and "communicate" to her that you want your dick sucked more often, she won't do it. In fact, every time you do your SMV drops in her eyes. You need to be her rock, stoic and unmoving. If you are complaining incessantly and demanding things of her, she will lose attraction to you fast.

Yeah I don't like it, we aren't all perfect, we all have weaknesses and days where we just want to complain about shit and be angry at the word. No one is perfectly stoic. Just don't do it in front of your girl. Women won't allow you to, no matter how "tolerant and accepting" they tell us they are. You will only truly digest the red pill when a girl you think you love laughs at you for crying. That's when you'll understand the true nature of women. This is also why it is important to develop some close male friends that you can straight-talk with about your problems. The more you show your LTR your weak and complainy side, the faster she'll leave you.


So what can a redpill man do to combat a woman's unreasonable demands?

First I want to say that not every chat that your girl sits you down for is going to be about her demanding unreasonable things. Sometimes what they want is a fair request and you were just oblivious or unaware. One girl sat me down and told me that foreplay needs to be longer with her because I was always trying too early and made her sore. Fair, I had no idea and so changed it up for her. Big success.

However often, (and we all know it) your plate or LTR will ask you for something ridiculous under the guise of "you can't treat me that way" or "I'm unhappy with where we are headed" or some other hamster way of saying "you need to do this for me".

It's very easy to get past these, and being a redpill man you probably know.

Abundance mentality allows you to say no, or leave.

Knowing when to be able to say "no, you are being crazy, I cannot do this, let's just break up then" is a powerful tool that you should keep prepared at all times. Nothing will make a girl backpedal faster than calling her bluff and actually breaking up with her when she presents you with an ultimatum.

Abundance mentality means that you'll have the security of knowing that you can drop the crazy bitch who was trying to be controlling and move onto the next girl with no trouble. Developing an abundance mentality, or always having two in the kitty for backup will mean that you will eventually have no problems with drawing boundaries and nexting a girl when she starts demanding that you change for her.

Making demands are just as easy when you don't give a fuck. "Stop going out so late with your girlfriends or we break up. Stop flaking on me last minute or I will move on". With enough of a threat, and accurate dread game (she should know that you will have no trouble moving onto a prettier girl after her), your girl should take the demand seriously.

Personally I believe that if you have got to the point where you're whining and bitching for sexual favours, or negotiating things with your SO, the relationship is already dead. If a girl is truly and fully attracted to you, if she gets aggressively turned on by you, then she will do anything you ask. With enough dread game and stoic control over your plate, she will never do anything to piss you off. Any concerns she has won't be voiced and she'll get over them, and if she does bring them up (and they're unreasonable) you say no, or break up. Just make sure you are always at your peak potential SMV and she will devote herself to you.


Lessons Learned

  • "Communication" = "Making Demands"
  • Women expect their demands to be met, while rejecting the demands of their partners.
  • Women employ powertalk to dismiss your demands.
  • Women see your demanding as complaining and whining. When you complain at her your SMV drops.
  • You cannot negotiate attraction

[–][deleted] 136 points137 points  (25 children)

Men are always told that talking out relationship issues is a good thing because it keeps "open communication". It helps with your "emotional availability" and helps her "feel close to you" and helps with "intimacy".

The issue isn't intimacy. The issue is attractiveness.

Most men who have washed up at The Red Pill or the manosphere have already tried all of this. They've tried talking. They've tried "changing". They've talked and talked and talked. They tried being nice, they tried cajoling and coaxing and begging and pleading and negotiating and capitulating and giving.

And it solved nothing.

[–][deleted] 59 points60 points  (17 children)

I believe men should communicate but not with words. Instead, use your actions.

Its the language of power and women are fluent

[–]2Overkillengine 43 points44 points  (8 children)

Exactly- most men make the mistake of attempting overt communication.

And it fails miserably. Covert communication methods such as dread game and withdrawal of attention in response to nagging and unbalanced demands is far more effective.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (6 children)

Yes sir- Nothing speaks louder than quiet dread. It taps into a woman's survival instincts and forces a submissiveness that no man can talk her into.

[–]DoesNotMatterAnymore 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It taps into a woman's survival instincts and forces a submissiveness

Especially because she FEELs that something is wrong. On the surface there isn't any major change (in your behavior), but something IS wrong. She feels it, so it must be real. They gut feeling hits them even more then us.

[–]ECTD 18 points19 points  (1 child)

So true. My girlfriend tried the whole "anal isn't want I want, I use to like it, but not anymore"... She fucking loved it, then the flipped switched. Then I told her in an unrelated discussion that Anal is a must, and I totally see why guys leave gals for that because it's important... She took the fucking hint. Next sex chat she said "yeah, I'll do some butt-stuff". Go. Fucking. Figure.

Now that I've begun swallowing the pill, it's as if she gets the picture. I don't care if she doesn't do anal. Someone else will; the sea is filled with fish and I'm a great fishermen with a long rod—catching fish ain't a problem. She can either be my great pike or take a hike. Aye?

[–]TRP_Lee_zard 0 points1 point  (2 children)

This works well if you are trying to get a woman to do something - reward her later with attention; but what to do when you want a womand NOT to do something? Withdraw attention would be the logical answer, but chicks don't connect why you withdrew the attention - it is necessary to be clear about this.

This is my main problem, not how to get a chick to do something, but how to make her stop...

[–]silentlyfurious 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Do it enough times and soon the hamster will spin in the right direction. Just keep on leading it and the hamster will follow your trail of bread crumbs to where you want her to be.

/u/omlala made an excellent post on this at some point. Look through his post history. Great reads.

[–]Senior ContributorOmLaLa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Be ware of the trap of the unwritten contract. If you are doing something with the expectation of a return for that something, but the other party is unaware of an expectation of a return something this can leave you upset the other person did not fulfill their half of the bargain which really only existed in your own mind.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Covert contracts need to be killed with sword, set on fire, locked in a box, and thrown overboard. Everything you do should come from your desire, even things that are done for others.

Think of a man who occasionally shares his plentiful bounty because he can and chooses to do so with zero expectation of reciprocal favors. When done intermittently, women will swoon when his highness expresses true generosity. Think how much more valuable this is compared to the average faggot who kisses her ass desperately hoping for a shot at the pussy he will never get.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The word here shouldn't be "covert," it should be "subtle."

There is a huge difference between taking actions that demonstrate "hey, I'm a valuable guy so don't waste my time" and something like just losing your cool one night and screaming at her "IF YOU WONT BLOW ME SOME OTHER SLUT WILL NOW MAKE YOUR CHOICE."

It's all about being tactful while still demonstrating that you've got options that you intend to leverage if you must.

[–]Idk123456789ten 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No in this case covert is the correct word, because the other party is unaware of the expections you set forth.

[–]icecow 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I believe men should communicate but not with words. Instead, use your actions. Its the language of power and women are fluent

tl;dr I'm looking for more content that explains how to communicate via actions and body language. The only source I've read that I can even remember right now is "What EVERYbody is saying".

Anyone have some good links / book picks?

.....

Right. About every 15 days I stop dead in my tracks and ask myself: "Am I speaking with my actions and being mindful of my body language or have I slid back to being verbal and being oblivious to my own body language?" By the 15 day mark, I almost always have slid back to verbal habits. Honestly, at that point it's hard to remember what I learned about being mindful of body language and speaking with actions. After reading up on it the content seems internalized, but it vaporizes within a few weeks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Give me some examples of messages (good and bad) that you want to send.

[–]Redasshole 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Opening up is also a way for women to get access to your deepest self. By learning about your fears etc they gain a new way to manipulate and influence you. Always keep women at an arm length or they will devour you

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No truer words have been spoken, this is literally the exact reason I washed up here.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep, if you're bombing and blasting your muscles hard enough at the gym you'll never have to ask for sex ever

[–]Wel108 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Surely this doesn't apply to having conversations of substance, right? Beliefs, life questions, etc.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Of course not. Reread the "communication = making demands" section. This is all in reference to communicating problems, an argument against communication being the 'key' which solves the problems in the relationship. This is not to say that communicating in general is not important, just that it's not the lynch pin often claimed.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 116 points117 points  (48 children)

Great post.

The problem with this advice becomes very clear very quickly if you are a man. It doesn't work.

Absolutely. Talking to a woman about relationship issues is fucking pointless. It's a long miserable emotionally draining assault... and I was fine with this. But then I noticed that nothing changed anyway - she simply carries on exactly as before, nothing changes as a result of the conversation, except now she's got more ammunition and resentment. I realised how fucking pointless talking about stuff is, so I stopped doing it.

There are better ways to negotiate your position in a relationship - dread, distance, pursuing better options.

Also... men are held to their word, women are allowed to change their minds. This means talks and agreements only benefit one party, and you can be certain it isn't you. Male honesty thus becomes a tactic women use to get men to do things: nag the man into agreeing to do something in the future, then later "but you SAID you would do it". Solution - never agree to anything, problem solved.

Women are not afraid to say no to their partners.

Not their BP husbands, that's for sure. What's he going to do, leave her and start handing her alimony?

However ... women are often afraid to say no because they're terrified of losing their high value (usually non-exclusive) in-demand lover. In these circumstances women do almost anything to please the man. Later they call this abuse and manipulation. If this is the dynamic you have with a woman - never, ever let her get the upper hand - the backlash will be horrific.

You cannot negotiate attraction.

You cannot negotiate it, but you sure can build it and use it:)

[–]Wel108 7 points8 points  (24 children)

How would you suggest to handle a "we need to talk conversation?"

I mean, you obviously cannot just say no all together, you could postpone it till its on your terms. But eventually the hamster wants to run. So, just be stoic, don't explain yourself, and hold frame on whatever topic you feel is important to you? There comes a point where some explanations need to happen, or am i wrong about this?

I'm aware that covert communication is more important, but if it's gotten to a point where she wants to be overt about something, you've obviously been failing at that, or she's just not a good match for you.

[–]kazaul 38 points39 points  (15 children)

Not the original commenter but, depending on how you work, there a few options. I'll portray the thee I've used below:

Let the argument begin and then clam it down. That's a setup for potential dread, and probably the more masculine way to handle these thing (i.e. this is how Grampa did it). You're acknowledging she has an emotional need to 'speak' her mind, but then shutting down what will be a 'talk' that doesn't benefit you. As a result, you're playing a dominance card. If you don't fuck it up too badly and shut down her conversation 'softly' while maintaining frame, you can turn the whole ordeal into a comfort test. Which is what these talks tend to be about: insecurity, irrational fears, emotional stability. That sorta thing. The 'female' logic.

Alternatively, you can run through the conversation and play it as one huge shit test (to be handled with amused mastery). This is doable by most semi-intelligent men, especially if you dislike open conflict or don't want to use outright dominance. Alternate between 'listening' to her any playing her fears / arguments off with funny, witty, joking comments. This way you can hold (or regain) frame without totally shutting her down, which isn't always the best solution – especially if there is something that should be talked about. This is a softer way of handling these sorta conversations but requires stabler frame, more mental agility, and greater self-control. Screw up and you risk becoming a BP listener, which undermines any position you may have had and requires an IMMEDIATE re-frame (which most guys suck at).

Or you can escalate the conflict into the heights of insanity. This is a very different beast and not advisable if you dislike drama. What you do is willingly enter her frame and shut it down from the inside, essentially turning a conversation about her into one about you. It's highly egocentric and will lead to arguments, fights, raised voices, the whole shebang. Many men (especially BP sorts) will start to do this but then LISTEN to her rather than prey on her emotions. That's a surefire way to get snared in her frame. The only way to make this work is break her frame and 'install' yours in its place. It's a messy process that requires a cool, calculating mindset to execute successfully but it works and can lead to very 'deep' emotional bonds. You've essentially surplanted her wishes with your own and 'fused' your frame into her mind. Resulting attachment is usualy uncharactersitically high and this is the only way I've found to 'repair' severely damaged relationships.

Which option you take is up to you and based largely on how you work as a person. I'd suggest option 1 for most men in most cases, option 2 for those trying to maintain a 'stable, easy-going' LTR despite ups and downs, and 3 only for people who actually enjoy engaging with women on their playing field. You can also mix all three variations into a single conversation, adapting depending on what's most useful.

One thing I'd like to add: having talks with women revolves largely around the ability to frame and reframe at will. For whatever reason, most guys have trouble with this. Once their frame is broken, they struggle to re-assert it, especially in the heat of the moment. This is what causes the 'listening to the woman whine' phenomenon. The appropriate response to such a situation is to immediately re-frame. Not 10 minutes later, not after the talk, but right the fuck now. You can usually allow a grace period of 30 seconds or so while you consider how to best reframe, and you don't really have to reframe out loud immediately – that can wait a moment. But you have to get your internal point of reference fixed ASAP so your responses aren't produced by her frame, but instead spoken out of yours. Her game is to try and prevent you from doing this, to snare you in her world view. Let that happen and it's over. And it happens most easily when you listen rather than superficially 'hearing' her while you focus on regaining control of the conversation.

Note that re-framing will invariably be followed up by shit tests or comfort tests (usually a string of shit tests) and often leads to comments about how you're such an asshole or don't know how to have an argument. That's perfectly normal and is essentially an admittance of „well, shit, I guess you won this round“. BP men in particular get confused by this and will bawlk, thinking they've left the wrong impression. Truth is, that's exactly the response you've been waiting for. Once it's happened, you are (usually) in the clear, and can go back to regular 'game', whatever that is in your particular case.

Also note that talks / arguments occur in every relationships, even the 'better' ones. The idea they can be avoided through proper game is nonsensical, at least in LTRs. In an LTR you are the focus of a woman's life. You get the whole package, including the 'silly' talks. If you don't like that or aren't ready for it, don't play LTR game.

[–]Wel108 9 points10 points  (6 children)

Wow, Lol. I just realized that i usually end up with the you're such an asshole, with them being quiet and kind of distant. Which means i won and they conceded. But i did get confused by that and actually pursue and try to fix the issue. Then she'll get happy, but distance herself even more, or need to go home etc. Luckily for me, my SMV is high, so i've fucked shit up so bad and somehow corrected it on looks alone. Jesus

[–]kazaul 9 points10 points  (5 children)

That used to happen to me a lot. Eventually I realized I was doing something wrong. My conclusion is, when you reach that point, the right thing to do is flip back to comfort / amused mastery and turn the situation into emotional 'fun'. This will prevent the "I have to leave" responses and turn a dreadful episode into something far more agreeable.

It helps if you can suppress the need to fix whatever is wrong, and the way to do that (IMO) is to realize: you've already fixed it. You solved her problem by asserting your frame, and any further attempt at solving whatever she 'said' will just lead to distance, as you observe. She already considers the issue resolved and can't understand why you're dwelling on something so inconsequential. She probably just wants to cuddle or fuck or whatever, but instead you get hung up on her words rather than the underlying message.

[–]Wel108 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yes definitely, i mean, there is some slight facial or rolling of the eyes. But that's the little kid / hamster. I just never realized that once she was there i had her in my frame. I just needed to basically play it cool at that point and change topics, or do something light. Thanks.

[–]ECTD 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Once my GF gets it in her head like she found the platform to preach from that I can take her down from I just go Amused Mastery. No fucking point trying to turn down them Feelztm

I can't tell you how well it works. Her mentality reverses so that she has to garner my attention, my thoughts, and my concern. I truly lose interest if it's clear she is swinging the sang stick over and over... Anyways, you point needs more up votes cause it's spot on.

[–]thewrightstuff88 0 points1 point  (2 children)

This sounds like a form of "push/pull," but not in the sense of teasing but in the sense that you are still "pushing" by creating distance and by using comfort/amused mastery and bringing her emotions around to something "fun" you are "pulling" her back in, thus maintaining the "emotional rollercoaster" that you want to keep going, as opposed to doing nothing and being a dud.

[–]kazaul 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think that sounds right. I'm not quite sure as it kinda happens without any input. My sense is just if I don't do this the situation gets uncomfortable and awkward, and I want to avoid that. So... yeah I think what you says sounds right. It's a push/pull and holding her emotional state in the "safe zone" where shit doesn't go sideways on me.

[–]thewrightstuff88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this is where being well versed in social competence plays a huge role. Which is why practice by exposure and meeting women and people in general is emphasized, as long as we recognize what the mistakes are and "experiment" and see what works and what doesn't. The plus side here is that we have a community that actively gives feedback and field reports so learning is accelerated and more focused so a lot of the "experimenting" has been done already since certain actions create consistent results such as dread.

[–]Jordainyo 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Can you write a book please?

If not please share more about reframing on the fly.

[–]kazaul 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Heh. I doubt I have enough experience or input to fill an entire book so I'll make a post about this particular topic later today.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

deleted What is this?

[–]kazaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Think traditional TV / Movie drama. The 'southern European guy' getting in a huge fight with his girlfriend sorta thing. That's what it looks like from the outside. Practically however, it's much closer to gaslighting (I do in fact gaslight if I don't pay attention to what I say when pulling this one off). But it doesn't have to be a distortion of perception. You just have to change the feels.

What you're doing is reading her emotional state (to do this effectively and in real time you have to have at least one foot inside her frame) and then changing her emotional perception of what's going on in real time. If you do it right, by which I mean don't slam your version of whatever down so hard that it's jarring, most women won't notice it's happening. This is because their rationale and internal narrative is based on their emotions. So if you change their emotions carefully, you change their entire narrative.

I can't provide examples of this as I, quite literally, cannot remember WHAT I say in these sort of situations. The words are entirely irrelevant. All that matters is how they affect her (and maybe your) emotional state. To me, it feels like I'm guaging risk vs reward and then picking ever more increasingly 'laden' statements when I feel it's safe to say them. The conversation usually starts out civil and will go all over the damn place from there. There's no pattern. Hence the drama and need for a cool, calculating head – if you get heated up too the entire thing will in fact become a fight and those tend to just make everything worse. They can be recovered from. But it's harder.

Also note that you're doing all this with 'female' tools and 'female' logic. You're not being dominant, you are being subversive. So long as you don't listen to WHAT she's saying and just focus on the emotional state, you can keep pushing your agenda into her emotional narrative. The flip tends to come in a momentary lull, when suddenly she'll see your point of view. Irrationally. And seemingly for no reason (though there was a reason: you changed her perception).

The inevitable arguments, while mildly annoying, are essentially a mask. It hides your agenda and allows both parties plausible deniability in case something goes wrong. You can always just explain it away as 'you had a fight'. It may be possible to do this without the escalation but I have not managed it reliably. It always leads to at least some heated emotions, which I believe is because you are actively mucking with their feels. This will generate internal friction, raised voices and hostility by default. I could be mistaken there but, at least in my experience, that's how it works.

[–]crazysiberian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I usually hate reading and writing "+1"-type comments. But this was an exceptional post and I want to thank you for writing it.

[–]reigorius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fantastic comment sir. You should make a post. It's an important topic so many guys struggle with. And it would be of immense value to new-comers and hardlearners.

Adding several scripts as examples would clarify how to practice the theory. Or real life examples if you have them.

Valuable comment that deserves a better spot than being hidden in someone else's post. Usually people refer to the theory of keeping frame, but a lot of guys need more fleshed out guidance.

[–]procrastibatwhore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you elaborate on the third tactic you mention to repair a severely damaged relationship? The one that's messy?

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Most importantly, don't get suckered in. "We need to talk" is really "I need to talk".

Sure, you can't stop it happening.... but you can refuse to engage rationally on whatever subject she's bringing up.

Sometimes it might even make sense to talk about stuff. But tread carefully and know you're on enemy territory with hidden mines at every turn.

If you fully understand what she's trying to do, and the likely outcomes, you're in a better position.

[–]Endorsed Contributoralways-be-closing 8 points9 points  (1 child)

How would you suggest to handle a "we need to talk conversation?"

One of the things that frame is so important for, besides letting you navigate the world when you're deciding things for yourself, is engaging with other people without a plan or with flexibility when a plan breaks, because you have a strong frame.

The US government has extraordinary frame - - it will do everything from drone strikes without warrant to kill US citizens abroad who are Muslim terrorists, to negotiating with Muslim terrorists.

Deep underneath all of this is the ability to unilaterally eradicate all human life on this planet, within several hours - or within a capital...

Our nuclear option, as men, is being willing to walk.

Heat is a great movie, and you should watch it.


No matter what else you do, no matter how nimbly you can navigate with a woman, you have to be willing to walk away.

And not come back.

This is the nuclear option for dealing with women, and unless you have it, and unless they know you have it and are willing to use it, even though you aren't excited about it and would prefer not to, they'll stomp all over you.

[–]Wel108 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've heard good things about Heat. I'll watch it. Basically demand your respect or you walk. I played the dread game a lot with my ex. But it was verbal, overt. Now I realize it needed to be subtle and covert, by using negative reinforcement or flirting with chicks when we were out etc. I've always been the overt demand my respect kinda guy. It usually works tbh, but to a certain point, and now I know why. They gotta actually see and feel it, rather than the garbage you spit out.

[–]SatanAscending 3 points4 points  (3 children)

"We need to talk" was covered few times already if I recall correctly. And by none other than by /u/redpillschool himself.

The title was:

'We Need to Talk' and other ways of controlling the flow of information for power.

Look it up, great read.

[–]Modredpillschool 2 points3 points  (0 children)

'We Need to Talk' and other ways of controlling the flow of information for power.

Thanks for the shoutout. Here it is:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3t65ba/we_need_to_talk_and_other_ways_of_controlling_the/

[–]Wel108 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure will, thank you.

[–]Wel108 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Looked through it all, couldn't find it.

[–]marty2k 8 points9 points  (0 children)

However ... women are often afraid to say no because they're terrified of losing their high value (usually non-exclusive) in-demand lover. In these circumstances women do almost anything to please the man. Later they call this abuse and manipulation. If this is the dynamic you have with a woman - never, ever let her get the upper hand - the backlash will be horrific.

Holy shit, nail on the head right here. Very well put.

This is why we hear so many stories of beta hubands/boyfriends finding out their prudish wife who finds blowjobs demeaning used to do anal, threesomes, sextapes, and begged for him to cum all over her dirty slut face. Of course when confronted, as you said, is that he manipulated and forced her to do it, despite the obvious and passionate verbal consent seen.

The key with the alpha isn't that he forces her, but makes her want to. It isn't "don't do what I want or I'm gone", he just brings out her sexually adventurous self. She knows if she doesn't bring it out that he will just get bored and move on, so she does it naturally. She loves the idea of kinky, sexually free sex with her alpha fuck because he is a kinky, sexually free man.

[–]RedPillHanSolo 3 points4 points  (2 children)

nag the man into agreeing to do something in the future, then later "but you SAID you would do it". Solution - never agree to anything, problem solved.

Hundred times this, my friend. That's what this girl I'm seeing is doing right now. Actually, the whole post is so goddamn accurate, that I feel like good ol' TRP is coming to life.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I feel like good ol' TRP is coming to life.

TRP is life. It's still staggering when it plays out exactly like described though :)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Damn, those assholes were right again."

[–]Dustin_Bromain 2 points3 points  (4 children)

That one fucking line: "But you SAID you would do it" always drags me right back to the anger phase. Holy fuck I hate that shit.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Looks, it's easy. Your words are held against you, hers are not. Therefore ask no words from her, give her no commitment to use against you.

Once you know what you're up against, the solutions become obvious.

[–]Dustin_Bromain 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I hope so because I always get slapped in this arguments.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Don't enter into it.

Women are emotional terrorists... you can't win. They hit you with guilt, irrationality... they say dumb shit to distract you and deny saying it. And when you're winning they just change the subject.

Why do they do this? It's a power play. "I've got you... I can say dumb fucking shit, negotiate for me, make your life hell... and I've still got you".

Solution is simple.... drama starts, you tell them they have 20 seconds to calm down. After 20 seconds (your bullshit limit) you quietly pack up and walk away.

Don't argue with them. You're on enemy territory, you're unarmed, and the enemy will confuse you about the path back to safety.

Instead it's drama -> warning -> walk.

If you're afraid that walking away will lose her.... you've already lost.

[–]Dustin_Bromain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've walked away before, it's a good option. Usually starts the "Spin Cycle".

[–][deleted] 2 points2 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Most important is to understand what's really being said, which is probably "I want you to want me more".

This particular little test/negotiation though....I'd be tempted to literally ignore. As in look at her expressionlessly, but say absolutely nothing.

If necessary, follow up with "I have heard you". But do not engage at any level at all.

[–]RememberingAlpha 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I just had flashbacks to my beta relationship with a college cheerleader who gave her best to everyone but me, would never blow me, and power talked me into complete submission. Things would feel better after communicating. Then nothing changed.

BRB, sulking.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 11 points12 points  (0 children)

You are one of the very few men in the entire history of the world to have an understanding of women, and you use this information to sulk ???

[–]tb87670 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Male honesty thus becomes a tactic women use to get men to do things: nag the man into agreeing to do something in the future, then later "but you SAID you would do it". Solution - never agree to anything, problem solved.

Or just tell her she never does anything she said she would do, so why should I? Tossed that one out once on my way out knowing shit wasn't going to work, but yeah I'm with you do not say you will do anything, just give a 'I'll think about it' at best.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 18 points19 points  (4 children)

Or just tell her she never does anything she said she would do, shy why should I?

This is pointless and makes you look reactive. Better to just be the kind of guy who doesn't discuss this shit, rather than explaining why not.

Def agreed on "I'll think about it" and "Maybe" and "We'll see". Give away your power and you'll become powerless in no time.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yep,

Or just tell her she never does anything she said she would do, shy why should I?

This is called explaining yourself. Stop doing that. The only time you ever explain anything to a chick is to give her plausible deniability for her hamster to run on.

Plate you've been fucking for months, "So what are we?"

you, "I really enjoy us but I have no desire to date, have kids or get married. If that's what you are looking for in the long run then that's not me. You do whats best for you"

Guiding the hamster and plausible deniability is this line right here, "I have no desire to date, have kids or get married.". You could tell the chick you are training to be an astronaut and that's why you can't date. It really doesn't fucking matter what you say as long as you give the hamster a wheel to spin on.

[–]SneakyTouchy 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I understand that reactionary behavior probably stems from a lack of abundance. If a man is taking care of himself, he probably won't care enough to fight about it.

What I may be grossly misunderstanding is, why would anyone trying to get rid of a woman want to continue employing any form of game? I don't see how it matters for that moment, of how he appears to her.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 3 points4 points  (1 child)

What I may be grossly misunderstanding is, why would anyone trying to get rid of a woman

It's much more powerful just to walk out without an explanation.

[–]SneakyTouchy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's what I'm confused about. Why show attractive qualities to someone you don't want attracted to you anymore?

[–]Cashews4U 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Criticism as a defense tactic rarely works short term and never does long term

[–]Endorsed ContributorMentORPHEUS 53 points54 points  (35 children)

You will only truly digest the red pill when a girl you think you love laughs at you for crying.

Very true, this happened to me in my BP 20s. That relationship should have ended then; I thought it could be fixed by pouring MORE love and attention into it, which predictably made her emboldened to behave WORSE.

If a woman dares to try to turn some vulnerability against you, the best move is to immediately and decisively nuke things. You might allow her to crawl back on your terms if she has potential (usually not.) There is great satisfaction in calling a woman's bluff, and watching her ugly Mean Mug (that was supposed to work how, again, woman?) dissolve into shock and pleading.

"We need to talk" run through Red Pill Translate comes out as "You need to listen!" I find these kind of confrontations work out best (whether it improves or dissolves the relationship) if you let her completely say whatever-all she wants to say, then calmly proceed in the direction you want things to go. Getting emotional along with her is just drawing you into her frame.

[–]kellykebab 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Letting her talk out all her feelings and "needs" is great advice man. You get the full picture of what she wants, she has nothing left to hit you with, and when you do your own thing anyway, she will be that much more impressed.

edit: Impressed or thrown off, whatever, basically the same thing.

[–]evileddy 32 points33 points  (11 children)

lol @ "we need to talk"

Nope. You need to leave.

[–]Joseph_the_Carpenter 41 points42 points  (0 children)

"We need to get my dick sucked."

[–]Turkerthelurker 17 points18 points  (7 children)

They always say it at night while you're about to go to sleep. Perhaps so you'll concede just to get some shut-eye.

Sorry babe, if you really want to force my hand and have a conversation I haven't had a chance to think about, be my guest. But I can garun-fucking-tee you aren't going to like how it ends.

[–]sharp7 11 points12 points  (5 children)

Testosterone also peaks in the morning and decreases as the day goes on.

[–]sigma272 6 points7 points  (0 children)

In other words, your DGAF is stronger in the morning and you're less likely to get emotional.

[–]benuntu 3 points4 points  (2 children)

And people make bad decisions when they're tired. That's why you "sleep on it". I've used this tactic in the past:

"You need to talk? Let's talk over coffee in the morning." or "OK, but I'm tired and need to sleep. So you can tell me what's on your mind, but I'm going to sleep on it and we'll talk in the morning."

[–]fingerthemoon 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I would always try the 'let's sleep on it' and she would retort with "I can't go to sleep until we resolve this". It became such a struggle that I made the guest room mine and would just shut her out. More often than not it resulted in her using sex to pull me back in.

Another time she would use to bring shit up was over dinner. This really pissed me off because I only eat once a day and if she starts a fight at this time it would fuck with my digestion. I'm learning to not be reactive. Stoicism is my new mantra.

[–]ChadThundercockII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do it like the old dogs did it... NO TALK AROUND THE TABLE. Make it your frame.

[–]RedMoonAscendant 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Testosterone levels don't work like you think they do.

Go to Youtube and watch Sapolsky's Stanford Lecture series on human behavior.

Hint: aggression and sexual behavior are only turned on/off by testosterone. Their levels aren't affected by T levels (until you go crazy and inject 100x normal amounts of T into your body).

[–]pisspoordecisions 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Holy fuck this is true, it drives me up the wall. They're even more willing to bring it up drunk after a night out too.

[–]ChadThundercockII 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nope. You need to leave.

I'll make a conscious decision to live the rest of my life as a John Wayne character. That response is similar to what one of his characters would say.

[–]skolmonkey 42 points43 points  (13 children)

Men want to fuck a woman's body. Women want to fuck a man's mind. Don't get mindfucked.

[–]HeinousFu_kery 21 points22 points  (4 children)

Been There Done That:

"Let's discuss..."

"Okay, lets..."

"I want...and you...."

Eventually I'd clothesline this by saying "Okay you wanted to discuss something, but all I've heard is a laundry list of demands and accusations...what are the points of discussion here? What are you going to contribute." Don't get upset or otherwise affected (called "holding frame" here, I think).

Of course the "points of discussion" are disappointed entitlement and general blamestorming for lack of contentment with her mixed up choices. Contributions? Never. I don't miss her at all.

It took me far too long to learn this brilliant insight; something that every male should be told at age 8:

When a guy hears "We need to talk" (itself an invitation to power talk), his translation is "this is going to be a serious topic". Hence, the man puts on his "Straight Talk".

When a girl hears "We need to talk", her translation is "a verbal battle is about to take place, how do I win?". The woman then puts on her "Power Talk".

Hold a woman to her own claims ("discussion" rather than demands) and the whole game either shatters for her or she decides you're "just like all the rest of the guys who won't talk about anything" (who won't be beaten down with words)

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Hold a woman to her own claims ("discussion" rather than demands) and the whole game either shatters for her or she decides you're "just like all the rest of the guys who won't talk about anything" (who won't be beaten down with words)

No, you are on the defensive and trying to justify. All she has to do is pressure flip and your on your ass again and it turns into an emotional argument. Something a woman will dominate you in every day of the week.

Here's what you say once they make their peace, "Alright, I'll take some time to think about that". Her, "What, no lets talk about it", "I learned a long time ago to never make a kneejerk decision". "Buuuutt......", "You said what you needed to, now lets go do ______"

When a chick says, "we need to talk", all she is wanting is to dump emotional baggage and vent. That's it really. If she has a lot of girl friends theirs a 99% chance she's already dumped this topic multiple times. I live with a chick roommate that befriends all my plates. The plates dump all this shit onto her and she warns me of the oncoming 'talks' sometimes months in advance. My chick roommate is like my early warning radar. I can plan my defense way in advance and I've found the perfect answer to this shit. I learned that they don't really care about what they want, the just want to dump this bullshit off their shoulders. Let them dump it and move the fuck on. Do the same exact shit OP cited;

Him: Anything I can do to make it better?

Her: No babe it's just me. I'll feel better soon and then we can get back at it don't worry.

Listen, Smile, Agree

Go through my post history and read, "Be Her Escape" where i do exactly this. Don't engage, don't put up with bullshit, cut the shit, say your peace and move the fuck on.

[–]HeinousFu_kery 0 points1 point  (0 children)

what are the points of discussion here? What are you going to contribute.

No, you are on the defensive and trying to justify.

Most certainly not - it's drawing the most feared of swords; holding her accountable for herself. It never fails. The splutter and bluster are epic.

This isn't for the everyday bullshit-of-the-day dump, it's for that "you're an asshole" screaming special. The LSA arrangement is for the rest of it.

It could get sucked into some kind of flip/turnaround game, but not if you don't let it and by not letting it you maintain control...or she wigs out completely and she's gone.

[–]Turkerthelurker 7 points8 points  (1 child)

It's all downhill once the "You always..." and "You nevers..." start.

[–]HeinousFu_kery 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Then there was the one who said "let's not have the same fight a second time - we'll discuss it"

And we did. Her, I kept.

[–]Endorsed Contributorcholomite 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Great post.

One more point to add is that whenever you're discussing serious issues with your woman, ALWAYS make sure you are displaying dominant body language over her. Sit up so she has to look up at you, lay her head on your lap or sit her on your lap, pull her into your chest or whatever. Never talk about anything serious from a submissive physical position. A lot of us don't really think about this stuff, because physical dominance isn't as important as it used to be for men to survive, but women's brains still trigger to cues that are thousands of years old. Be physically dominant over her or she will not respect you or what you are saying.

[–][deleted] 13 points13 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]chances_are_ur_a_fag 1 point2 points  (0 children)

this right here is spot on

[–]benuntu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This needs to be the top post. The strong leader position is the absolute best possible position to be in. You both know you're in charge, you are steering this ship, and she can only make requests. And like a good leader, you listed to those requests and decide to reward or not based on behavior.

[–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Excellent post.

It's true that communication is the key to a healthy relationship, and men often communicate best through action, e.g. Caesar crossing the Rubicon with his army sent a stronger message than possible through words. “What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.”

It turns out that you can negotiate attraction but not through words or agreements; the negotiation has to be done through your actions. One form of negotiation is, via your actions, sending the message that either she proves that she is attracted to you or you're going to find someone else.

Putting yourself first, abundance mentality, dread game, and communication through action - these are the four tools that will markedly improve your relationships.

[–]NeoreactionSafe 19 points20 points  (16 children)

 

"Communication" is another name for "Access".

 

A woman wants Access to a man's emotions in order to control him.

Frame is keeping that firewall in place that blocks her Access to your emotions.

Freedom means you are "free" or "not connected".

A man should love a woman, but a woman should not control a man.

Love in the masculine sense are rewards and punishments given to the women, children and puppies in your care.

 

[–]RedoranBoneMould 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If you fleshed this out, it could become a very good standalone post about the importance of frame. Great comment.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is the best and most effective way i have seen frame explained.

You could literally FEEL frame and when a women is testing yours and then just poof your firewall blocks it.

[–]0FO6 9 points10 points  (5 children)

Awesome post that is spot on. The only thing I would add is any kind of couples/marriage counselling is absolutely the worse. Not only do you get this behaviour from them it gets reinforced with a 3rd party listening in. Actually it is worse than that, because it is the whole we need to talk from either party amplified by orders of magnitude. While having someone trying to convince you that you need to be more beta. Seriously they (both the counsellor and her) will tell you that you need to step up and do more around for her in return for whatever you want, which doesn't ever work.

Even accepting seemingly simple demands has the potential to lower your standing in their eyes considerably. It is one thing that if she is making demands of you then it is pretty much over. And if you are making demands of her than it really is over they won't see you as anything else than beta at that point.

[–]grewapair 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ha, I dated a woman who was holding so much bad stuff from me, and she made the mistake of bringing me to her private therapist for couples counseling. The guy practically told me to run.

[–]1PrinceofSpades 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I was considering going into couples therapy despite being a TRP man to, you know, actually fix relationships... But then I realized I'd get fired.

[–]2Overkillengine 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Hire out to men that want to end their relationship while maintaining good public face of "trying".

[–]_the_shape_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

having someone trying to convince you that you need to be more beta.

Excellent point.

In retrospect, this was the most excruciating insult to injury I endured during my increasingly painful relationship with my ex - being told that I'm not beta "understanding" enough, to yield "compromise" more, to emasculate myself "empathize". It seemed like with every session, the amount of shame and suspicion shot in my direction would rise gradually. My relationship was a classic AF descent into knee-deep betaness, and everything about this therapist's (feminist-reeking) advice and 'counseling' carried an undertone of "bad beta, bad!"

About two weeks before her and I split, she worked out with me (something we rarely did), and she remarked how turned on she was with my physique. The following day, she reminded me via text how hot and bothered she got the day prior and how eager she was to have animalistic sex once she got out of work. It had been months since I had seen this feral side of her, the side we all want in a woman, to be the guy she dreams of constantly having inside of her. Never once did this relationship-guru fraud speak of becoming more attractive (in truth, by becoming more masculine) by partaking in something like lifting. The unspoken message was that I needed to work on becoming a better slave, not a better master, if a master at all.

Once you know what couple's therapy is all about, you simply cannot claim ignorance any longer - whether or not you attend has absolutely nothing to do with "love", but everything to do with whether or not you possess any self-respect.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This reminds me of the marriage ccounselling scenes of Ari & His wife in entourage. God that shit was so cringe to see a woman have so much control over Ari like that.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

•Women employ powertalk to dismiss your demands.

This is 100 percent true. I will say to any of the younger men that read this, do NOT engage a woman when you are getting ready to go to sleep. I have done this time and time again because I believed the "never go to bed angry" bullshit. Who is angry? The woman? Not me..thats for damn sure...the only thing on my mind is how I'm about to rest before I wake up to go to work tomorrow.

Having "chats" until 2 in the morning is useless. It's a scapegoat for her thinking that you will just give in so you can go to bed. You want to see a woman's hamster as clear as can be? Refuse to engage her when she starts some shit right before bed. Tell her you will talk about it in the morning. She will lose her god damn mind. If you're gonna cry, take it to the couch, I have work tomorrow.

[–]r3dast3rik09 4 points5 points  (10 children)

OP, your scenario about infrequency of sex due to her exhaustion is too familiar.

How does one break this habit on her end then besides calling her out for shit? I've begun expressing indifference towards stupid demands and it seems to be turning her around.

[–]WillyFistergasch 18 points18 points [recovered]

Don't try to get it out of her. Jump back in to your hobbies. Hit the gym. Meet up with your buddies for a round of golf or dart night. Make your time scarce. Dread it up. She'll come on to you out of fear of losing her grip on you. Let her earn back your time slowly, but reward her efforts in other small ways.

[–]r3dast3rik09 3 points4 points  (6 children)

I've been pretty wrapped up with work during the week and weekends (private tutoring/college consulting business) as finals/APs are coming around the corner as well as starting the college process. She works a more conventional 9-5, my weekdays are 2-9 and my weekends are usually 9-7 (my weekends will lighten up in a month). My reason for taking on such a schedule is because I'll be out of work for the next 4 years I'm in med school so I'm tryna save and earn as much as I can right now. I take Friday's off to catch up with reading, hobbies, and hang with my friends. I can't lift all that much due to a back injury but I bike and do Pilates in the AM from M-Th.

It used to be a "you don't work as many hours as I do so you don't get what being tired feels like." My hours have gotten busier lately so I'm actually working more than her now. We typically hang out over the weekends/the occasional Friday bc our weeks are hectic.

However even after a 9-7 Saturday of work, I'm the more functional one even if I'm drained from the day. Her excuse now is "I'm a morning person." Tired once in a while is normal, but having this reasoning for multiple weeks is a bit odd. And it feels like a shitty cop out answer bc surprise: everyone is tired. In comparison, her Saturday's are spent watching TV, going to the gym, or family things. Nothing super intensive.

This has been going on for a couple of weeks so far, beginning of March. Trying to figure out how to tackle this best also as we've got a trip to Seattle coming up in first week of June.

Wouldn't making myself scarce have a backfire effect? That's what part of me is hesitant about, as we don't get much time (though to be fair, the time spent sometimes feel boring).

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood 13 points14 points  (0 children)

search, "12 levels of dread".

She's getting what she wants from you without giving you what you want(sex). Figure out what she is getting from you and take it away. Stop making her a priority till you see her making you a priority.

Also search "sunk cost fallacy" and learn all about that.

Wouldn't making myself scarce have a backfire effect? That's what part of me is hesitant about, as we don't get much time (though to be fair, the time spent sometimes feel boring).

Absolutely not. You're showing onitis, pedestrianization and scarcity mentality in just this one comment. I'm not surprised you aren't getting what you want.

(though to be fair, the time spent sometimes feel boring).

What ever you are feeling, she's probably feeling 10x more. This is absolutely horrible and will kill attraction quicker than anything. There is a reason we preach to men never to move in with a chick. Fastest way to a dead bedroom.

You need to say fuck it. Soon as you get home from work you need to take a shower, get dressed and go do some shit. don't explain, don't tell her anything. Just go do whatever the fuck you want without her. If she asks just say "Heading to the gym" and don't break stride as you walk out the door. If you start getting texts, her asking what your doing, how it's going, shit like that then you know it's working. Don't go running back home though, this shit takes time.

Or, she won't care at which point your relationship is either already dead or you aren't dreading her enough.

[–]sharp7 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Its just simple negotiating. She is getting what she wants from you regardless of what she delivers (sex). Take away what she gets from you and she'll have to put out more. If you don't give her much to begin with then you are fucked.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

if it's boring, find something else to do. go to the gym, ride a bike, go for a pint with the bros. go to the garage and whack your car with a wrench if that's your thing.

it's not even about dread (although that can come as a bonus). it's that she's wondering why she's hanging out with some chump that would rather be bored with her than having fun elsewhere.

if you need some space from her, or want to do something she isn't into, go alone. if you'd like her company (actually. not just because you think she wants yours), include her in your plan. but don't just sit there waiting for her to fix your boredom. she doesn't want to, and thinks you're a a useless sack of shit for expecting her to.

[–]kazaul 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If you can't wrap your head around how dread works, then you're still stuck in a BP mentality. I've left girls for weeks on end if that's what my interests demanded. No negative effects, just a few shit tests and usually a comfort test.

None of this dread is intentional. It tends to stem from me working on my game (the video game kind), wanting to hang out with a different crowd, or just being fucking tired of society and wanting to shut it out so I don't go into psycho mode. If she doesn't come back to me eventually, I'll consider dropping her and start vetting other potential LTRs. Ten times out of ten I wrote them off way too early and they return, desperate for affection and my time.

End of the day, it doesn't really matter. I don't need her to be happy and, while I do eventually miss her (whoever she is; they're largely interchangeable), I don't really care either way. I can go months on end without steady companionship. If I get too lonely, I'll hit a bar to socialize & flirt even if I don't want to fuck, just to remind myself there are people out there and I'm not alone. Or I'll check my buddies / girlfriends for someone who's looking for attention but doesn't expect commitment or anything. That fills the 'society' meter back up and I can go back to not giving a fuck again.

Admittedly, this behavior is largely due to my mental state, but it betrays a lot of RP truths and has been going on since long before I read TRP. I've not been single longer than a month in 8 years and there have never been any issues due to (largely unintentional) dread. At most, I get to hear her tell me I don't give her enough attention, to which my response is always that's her problem. She knows where the doorbell is and she has my number.

But I'm not about to go out of my way to spend time with her consistently, and neither should you – there are rare cases where you'll want to spend time but those are... rare. There is nothing to be gained from constant companionship. Your fear and doubts are irrational. If you have solid-ish frame and are high SMV, they will want more. If you fail on some level, they may go hypergamy on your ass, but only if you screw up or are shit at game. Anyone who's invested in you will be loyal to a rather alarming degree (despite what TRP often proclaims).

I think the notion a 'girl will fuck anyone she can' gets touted a bit too often here. This is subjective ofc but I've had four relationships in 8 years, and I've been cheated on once, and one girl fucked some dude because she felt like she had to. That's 2 confirmed out-of-relationship fucks in... 2920 days, one of which was in an acknowledged 'open' relationship (I was trying to plate, but that went sideways and it's now an LTR). Even if I assume there was a lot of lying going on and it was closer to 10 fucks... or even 20 fucks, it's still not exactly hypergamy running rampant. Less than a 1% of all fucks with someone else, assuming we have sex once a week, which is a low estimate. So either my game is better than average, I'm higher SMV than I think, or... the danger is over-exaggerated by men who fear loosing control of their women.

Admittedly, is my mentality is atypical. I don't care if she cheats (and often tease my girls about the fact they could if they wanted to, when they complain I'm not around). But that doesn't disprove the original point: dread works. More importantly: living ones life without relying on others, and doing what we want to most, works. Sure, we all have moments of doubt and need company, but that shouldn't become the norm. It will stifle you, get you stuck in ruts, and ultimately ruin any chance you had at a fun, fulfilling life.

[–]GunsGermsAndSteel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What backfire? Are you afraid she'll leave you? If you're afraid she'll leave, she's already gone.

[–]quicklogaccount 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How does one break this habit on her end then besides calling her out for shit?

Dread works like a charm, it's literally unbelievable until you do it. It LITERALLY works overnight. You don't need to be an asshole to implement it though.

[–]gvivalover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

imo just ditch her. infrequent sex with zero hassle

[–]AircraftWelder 3 points4 points  (2 children)

It's cringeworthy looking back on the degree I used to do this. I was completely sold on having long conversations, even though they never changed anything and I was perpetually stressed.

I wasn't able to see it until TRP that in the beginning of my last relationship, I never had to do anything other than express distaste to get her to change her act right away. Definitely dropped the ball on that one, I became a real pussy for that last year.

[–]3savoryprunes 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It's cringeworthy looking back on the degree I used to do this.

Oh, the cringes. If we could harness all of the cringe energy that TRP emits when we collectively examine our past BP behavior, we would have a resource that would amaze even Nikola Tesla.

[–]RedMoonAscendant 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm building a Cringe Plant that'll power southern California, so no-one else needs to build down here.

[–]grewapair 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Geez, I keep reading posts like this, thinking, "hmm, a fleshlight doesn't seem like a bad idea!"

[–]thatguy76890 1 point2 points  (1 child)

i leave thinking "maybe they should legalize prostitution"

[–]thisisathrowaway2703[🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where I'm from it is legal. Wooooo.

[–]fingerthemoon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There you go boy. Just fuck your fleshlight and leave them bitches to me.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

So basically do whatever you want and if she doesn't like, fuck her. Next.

[–]EscortSportage 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is amazing, it should be chiseled into stone and on display for men around the world in every language!

Thank you good sir.

[–]yobai_master 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Doesn't this also work the other way around? If a man wants to "communicate" and is shut down, then it's up for the man to be strong and dump the woman if he doesn't feel like his voice is being considered. If you, the man, choose to just accept the woman shutting you down, then it's your fault for being such a beta.

Him: We haven't been having much sex recently.

Her: I've been tired and stressed from work

Him: Anything I can do to make it better?

Her: No babe it's just me. I'll feel better soon and then we can get back at it don't worry.

In this case, if I think sex is paramount for a healthy relationship (and I do think that), then I would basically give her an ultimatum. Of course, I would wait to see if she feels better and if she still isn't putting out, then I'm done with her.

I think OP is correct in saying that average to hot women are raised with some sort of entitlement. But this doesn't mean you need to put up with their shit. Either dump the bitch or put up with it.

[–]Heathcliff-- 2 points2 points [recovered]

I agree, but I agree in the sense that if a woman is responding to you in these sorts of ways, she has lost all attraction to you and you should dump her simply because the relationship is already dead and rotting.

[–]yobai_master 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Totally agree with you.

Sometimes there are real reasons that make both women and men act differently than their normal selves. I've been tired and stressed from work before and sometimes I just don't feel like having sex. But I'll definitely be back to normal once I've caught up on sleep and am less stressed. If normalcy is not achieved after awhile, then the relationship is either already dead (as you mentioned) or this woman/man just has too many things going on and isn't ready for a relationship. It's up to you to figure that out and not overreact.

[–]RolandTheDickslinger 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't give ultimatums. Just go away.

[–]InformalCriticism 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This really does hit some things home in my past. It's what made my marriage so miserable, the only time we had to speak was very brief, and it was insanity, because it was always in a veiled attempt to get something she wanted.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The problem with verbal communication is that it is a costless, and hence, less honest signal than actions (non-verbal behavior). Remember the dicta: Women talk, men do. Demonstrate, don't explicate. Acta, non verba.

The reason for this is that women know that words are just words, and that actions carry the day. Since women are physically smaller and weaker than men, they have to rely on deception to achieve their goals in a competitive environment. This is why women tend not to fight each other physically, they just talk about their victim behind her back until she develops an eating disorder.

I see "communication" as less making demands and more confining the battle to a place and mode that she can dominate in.

[–]Gross_Guy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All this reading and thinking and bullshit associated with women... it's so complicated and annoying. I'm just going to be a hermit in a forest on a mountain somewhere and live my life happily alone.

[–]TRPtruth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Two in the kitty" is of course the best way to deal with this. But some guys just won't have "two in the kitty." If this is you then what you need is the confidence and comfort in knowing that you can be alone and that your life will be great whether or not this chick or ANY chick is in your life.

Abundance mentality, for some guys who just aren't natural born alphas, in some ways means independence mentality. If your woman starts making crazy, nonsensical and deal breaker demands, you can walk regardless of what is in the "kitty." That is the only true way to have abundance....you alone, your GDI self, is abundance enough.

Women are like buses in a busy city, the next one is always right around the corner.

[–]aanarchist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

lesson learned, when she opens her mouth, tell her to shut it and get back to the kitchen. it honestly pains me to have to treat women in such an archaic way, but i can't treat someone better than they deserve, and i certainly can't treat someone as more intelligent than they actually are.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is effective and ineffective communication.

Whining that you aren't getting your dick sucked is ineffective communication.

Simply requesting that you get your dick sucked is ineffective communication.

Whats effective is communicating that your needs are important and they're going to be met. If not by her, then gladly by some other girl who would kill to be in her position right now. You do this subtly of course. No guy who's time is worth something would ever have to overtly state it.

And then guess what you do?

You act on it. If your needs aren't being met, you stop sinking your time and energy into a dead end. You move on and try elsewhere.

Where some motherfuckers fail is when they think that this one girl is the only girl who would ever give them attention, find them worthwhile, or even look their way.

That's not the case, guys. Simple fact is, girls are abundant. The wisdom that you've gained from TRP is not. People with goals, ambitions, drive, and a thirst for life are hard to find.

And if she doesn't find you valuable, don't take it personally. Most people in our society aren't worth listening to due to the fact that they're so locked in and brainwashed by the system.

[–]CharlesThundercock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is sidebar worthy my friend. You've laid this out simply, yet you're dealing with some of the most difficult interactions for men to master.

You can't negotiate attraction, but I posit that you really shouldn't be negotiating with women in general.

We, as men, can be negotiated with. We can listen to concerns, weigh pros and cons, see both sides of the argument, and find solutions.

Not so with women. They want what they want, and they'll use whatever language and communication tactics they have at their disposal to get what they want.

Think you're going to "communicate" your way into more blowjobs? You'll start the conversation there, and by the end of it you'll be taking shit over some girl you were talking to on the DL years ago at the beginning of your relationship. You'll be taking shit about not "doing enough" for her. By the end of it you'll be so mentally drained you'll forget what you were even trying to communicate. Plus the whole interaction dries vaginal cavities.

The answer, as with most things when dealing with women is Frame and Dread.

"Communication" with women about problems is entering her frame. As OP stated, you're speaking two languages here. You're trying to solve problems, she's trying to win (which she will).

Lately, I've been treating all attempts at such talks as shit tests. Sometimes, if I've been being a little too awesome lately they're actually comfort tests, but I can fix that shit later if they are.

"Baby....we need to talk. I want you to (unreasonable demand)"

"You know what I want. A silver Aston Martin and a summer home in Ibiza."

Either she grins and gives up, or I can play tennis all day.

"You're not taking me seriously....I want."

"Scratch that baby, I think I want that graphite color."

"But..."

"And a mute Ukrainian maid to keep the place together."

[–]ahmedpie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I find it strange and feel like shit everytime i do this but... Whenever my plate is talking or rambling about something i dont care about, i interrupt them. I change the topic in way that they clearly know i dont give a shit... And they get more attracted.

I would never do this to my boiz, never do this to my parents never even do this to a random girl on the streets. Cause i have respect for them. If i do it with someone i am seeing they slowly start losing respect for me.

Its strange how things work. Respect is everything. But not with your SO. Respect is there but it definitely not as important.

[–]1wanderer1976 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You should know how to talk. You also have to know when someone is weaseling with power talk. "I'm feeling tired and stressed, and I don't know when I will want to have sex again." is a perfect example of a bullshit answer. The proper response is, "Okay, get some sleep tonight, I'll bring home dinner tomorrow night, be ready to go after dinner."

It's laid out for her. She knows you will be responsible for the evening meal. She knows that you are planning to have sex afterwards. You aren't making a demand, she can't easily weasel her way out of it. If she does, she risks showing the game she is playing.

We are all tired, we all have stressors, they are not an excuse to not get initimate. It's not a fucking marathon. Physical contact reduces (or should) stress by releasing hormones that ease stress.

If she refuses to perform, calmly place her pillow in the hall and lock the bedroom door. She has choices. You have choices. Demonstrate what you are willing to allow.

[–]ForgotHowToAdult 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When a girl "communicates" with a guy that she is unhappy with a certain tenet of their relationship ... what she is actually doing is serving him an ultimatum.

This is entirely based on a preconception that the woman is willing to move on easily. In other words it means that the issue she brought up means more to her than all of you combined. If you are constantly dating a women who are willing to throw away a committed relationship with you because you set boundaries, you might have a really bad taste in women or fucked up boundaries.

Also, OPs advice for dealing with women who threaten you if you do not submit to them is to threaten them if they don't submit to you. Either way it is not healthy. I perfectly agree that you should make her face the consequences of her actions. If she threatens you with a breakup, leave. Or, make it abundantly clear that you have no problem leaving and that if she insists on aspects of the relationship you do not agree with, you will be on your way. If you do not want to be with someone who threatens you, make it very clear that you do not appreciate threats. However, becoming the thing you despise by manipulating her with threats... that is like stealing from a thief. Kinda seems to make sense, but the world will stay the same shitty place if you take that route.

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The key to a good relationship is communication

that's how women see "communication" from their partners. Whining.

Bingo! "Communication" to a girl means...I get to bitch and complain and you do what I say. If YOU bitch and complain that is unattractive and unmanly worthy of contempt.

So we have one side playing the let's be reasonable and work it out game and the other openly making naked demands. One side must be obeyed, the other side is not even worthy of being heard.

Thus your only options are to spin plates (which creates natural Dread) or be prepared at all times to use Dread Game.

[–]mechdemon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good post. I recently experienced this when having 'communication' issues with a plate, where she was unhappy that I did not treat texting as a real-time communication medium. After seeing that this was going to be a recurring issue, I hard-nexted her because I just don't need that kind of bullshit in my life (I noticed my stress levels rising and I had less time for doing the things important to me.)

There may have been a better course of action to take if I wanted to keep her around, but I just didn't care at that point.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is so fucking accurate. An excellent reminder of why relationships require being at the top of your game.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Outstanding post!

Even the straight-talk / power-talk part alone was worth it. It's nice to have a defined name for the odd way of communicating women have - everyone knows theirs is different, but it's hard to put your finger on it without specifically knowing the difference.

[–]benuntu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you can't make demands (aka communicate) with your woman, you've done something wrong. There should be enough willingness to please on her side that you can ask for what you want. If you maintain that your value is higher than hers, she should be looking for ways to gain your affection.

If not, then work on developing more attraction. And correct, you can't negotiate it, but you can increase it. Work out more, socialize and flirt more with other women, take some time away from her, don't text back for a while, focus on a skill, etc. Those things should remind her that you're not tied down, and have plenty of choices about who you spend your time with.

[–]jethreezy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Communication is the key to a healthy relationship

Depending on how one defines "communication", it isn't necessarily wrong. If your woman is acting whiny, bitchy, cold, demanding, or any combination thereof, then picking her up, slamming her on the bed, and giving her a good fuck would be a very effective method of communication.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Communicate covertly to get what you want.

[–]calantus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

[deleted]

What is this?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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[–]fasthandssam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Communication really IS key. It's just not what you express verbally. It is how you communicate with your attitude, your actions, and your reactions. Be a high status man who values himself. Do not say: "I am a high status man who values himself"- speaking this communicates the opposite. In this same way, communication at the nonverbal level should truly be considered the most important part of every man's game, relationships, and interactions.

[–]Rob_Dead 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good post, full of useful points and examples.

I have personally seen and dealt with situations like these on numerous occasions, but before coming to theredpill I either put 'things' down to querkieness from the girl or lack of understanding from me.

Well, I did lack understanding it seems, although not of the type I first thought.

[–]agarmend 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Knowing when to be able to say "no, you are being crazy, I cannot do this, let's just break up then" is a powerful tool that you should keep prepared at all times. Nothing will make a girl backpedal faster than calling her bluff and actually breaking up with her when she presents you with an ultimatum.

This. Why is this so hard? The whole post could be summarized with this paragraph. ALWAYS DO THIS if you are somewhat uncomfortable with her demands. Even a little bit. They quickly learn to drop their drama.

[–]DarkuSchneider 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Women are natural communicators, nature wired them for this. They rely on their social skills and manipulation to survive instead of brute force. Talking things out is also how they deal with stress where a man likes to forget about something until he can do something about it usually. Men and women deal with stress differently and both make the false assumption the other perceives and experiences life the same way as they do leading to much friction. For a man actions speak louder than words to his mate.

[–]jerkMEthenMERKme 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would "Stop posting slutty pictures on Instagram, or we're done" be acceptable ?

[–]1PantsonFire1234 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It all comes down to relationships. Relationships are beneficial to women. It's their battleground and they know the terrain. The only thing men get out of a relationship is steady starfish sex and some companionship. Neither of which you'd ought to need from a girl if you're living a good life.

I often see guys supplicate these areas in which they are lacking (sex, compassion, female touch, companionship, love) by getting a girlfriend. This completely defeats the purpose of having a satisfying life however. The girl knows you can't do without her.

Relationships should be a last resort when your plate threatens to break and you still want to squeeze some drops of fun out of her. I think every guy here can attest that plates are infinitely more fun than girlfriends.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So this is why long distance relationships either never last long or the bitch is fucking someone behind your back.

[–]Il128 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Meh. Women love sex. They want to have sex everyday, several times a day.

If your woman is average or above and not having sex with you I guarantee you she's having sex with someone else.

[–]Upvote_To_The_Left 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a great submission. Thank you.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Does anyone who follows this sub redd it actually have an effective relationship?

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