Catfight: study of 11,000 workers finds women, not men, are the ones who hate working under female bosses (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by G_Petronius

This one is kind of hilarious, although not unexpected.

You'll find the study here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2796267

What did they study?

They used two samples, amounting to 11,000 workers total, covering a wide range of demographics, employment types, industries and seniority. A measure of job satisfaction was constructed with the methodology you can read in the article, and correlations between job satisfaction and various parameters were calculated while controlling for confounds.

What did they find?

In their own words, this is the result from their first sample:

Column (2) shows that male worker job satisfaction is not significantly influenced by supervisor gender. Column (3) shows that the job satisfaction of women is significantly and negatively correlated with having a female supervisor.

and this for the second sample:

More relevant to our central question, we find that, even after including measures of supervisor attributes, women report lower levels of job satisfaction when their supervisor is also a woman.

In fact, they go so far as to say:

Indeed, our results tend to support those of Warning and Buchanan (2009) and Buchanan et al. (2012), who suggest that women have a “hidden bias” against female bosses; women tend to believe female bosses are no worse, and perhaps better, than males yet still do not want to work for one.

Let that sink in: women give their bosses performance evaluation that are no worse or slightly better than they give male bosses, but they still hate working under other women.

By the way, the result is not just an average; using data for workers who've changed from a male to a female boss or vice versa, the study finds:

For women, replacing a female supervisor with a man yields significantly improved job satisfaction compared to the alternative. When a woman replaces a male supervisor, job satisfaction significantly decreases, but only in the job fixed effects estimates (column (4) in Table 4). These effects are asymmetric in magnitude; the change from a woman to a man as supervisor has a larger effect in every specification than the change from a man to a woman. Finally, there remains no evidence among men that changes in supervisor gender correlate significantly with job satisfaction.

And in conclusion:

After controlling for worker fixed effects, as well as a host of demographic, workplace and supervisor characteristics, we find a persistent and negative relationship between women's job satisfaction and having female supervisors in two distinct data sets. The magnitude is non-trivial.

In RP terms...

Hierarchy, which is intimately connected to leadership, is a male a social structure. Men spent a few hundreds thousand years hunting fast and dangerous game: they had to collaborate, and they had to reward the best hunters and fighters, as a matter of survival. Women spent a few hundred thousand years gathering fruits and roots and jockeying for position with other women so they could access the best males, also as a matter of survival.

What that means is that women hate any woman and like any man who is ahead of them on the social ladder. Men might like or hate a boss, but they're no driven to wanting to bring him down the same way women are.

[–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat 125 points126 points  (26 children)

For those who don't quite understand the attitude of women towards other women, see the lengthy but fantastic article on the Female Social Matrix by Ian Ironwood.


While men will decide on a leader and then advance their respect and grant him authority in good faith until he proves his incompetence, once women decide on a leader they immediately begin looking for ways to cast her down, undermine her authority or mitigate her power. . . without looking like that's what they're doing. Female competition is subtle and indirect, a matter of turning group consensus away from the established leaders' desire toward your own. And if you're thinking that's a lousy way to run a company or a non-profit or any organization that wants to actually get something done, well, I can't argue with that.

[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 60 points61 points  (14 children)

Watching women interact with one another in group dynamics gives me a headache. All sorts of lies, deception, false smiles, passive aggressiveness, insinuations, weird greetings, apologies, lack of direction, need of consensus, jibber jabber.... Barf.

[–]thecajunone 24 points25 points  (12 children)

That's why they don't get us. Because when we say something we mean exactly what we said.

[–]angryguy4444 13 points14 points  (6 children)

And they try so hard to wrap their head around what the meaning is behind the words we pronounces.

[–]1PantsonFire1234 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Hilarious right, they are deceitful themselves so they project and assume we are to. So when we say something their heads spin a thousand times trying to figure out the underlying meaning. Never realizing we meant what we said.

[–]angryguy4444 3 points4 points  (1 child)

One can really have fun with that. Try it with your girl next time : say something common like "the tea is warm" with a facial expression and a body language which signals that it has a very strong and important subtext. lots of fun

[–]1PantsonFire1234 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do that all the time, usually it's just teasing and I reveal my houdini trick later on. Though sometimes when I think I found a cunt I use my magic powers for evil.

[–]maniclurker -5 points-4 points  (4 children)

I don't think you've been paying attention. Part of any "game" is upselling yourself, which is deception.

[–]thecajunone 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Fuck that, actually raise yourself up. Women can smell bullshit.

[–]maniclurker 8 points9 points  (2 children)

My experiences in life do not align with yours. I've seen far too many women in bad situations in to believe they have enough sense to "smell bullshit." People who can do that tend to be successful.

[–]thecajunone 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I dunno why your going after those types but it's OK, we can have different realities.

[–]maniclurker -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not exactly certain why you're under the assumption these are women I've sexually pursued. I'm referring to women who've been in my life on other roles... friends, family, coworkers, etc.

I think it's less that we have two different realities, and more your lack of observation. Women really can't smell bullshit anymore than you or I.

[–]1PantsonFire1234 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well said, their small tiny lives feel like one big television drama. It's enough to make your head dizzy.

[–]playingwithfyre 48 points49 points  (2 children)

So in other-words, innate shit testers.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I don't see the connection with shit testing.

[–]1PantsonFire1234 8 points9 points  (0 children)

He means that women constantly question authority and leadership in both men and women. But that this is not so much testing as it is their nature to undermine.

[–]idahar 12 points13 points  (2 children)

I forgot who said it, but in a post about Machiavellian traits, the OP stated that women innately possessed the ability to manipulate using the 'soft touch'. Having read this article, while I agree that men get shit done due to having an objective oriented mindset, it's the female attitudes that we see being used today. The most powerful individuals, by political, economical, or plain cultural criteria use the female method of interaction, where they play subtle games and can slip the knife in while shaking your hand at the same time.

While I may be downplaying the subtleties of a male-oriented hierarchy, what we see in the interactions between important officials and personnel are overwhelmingly similar to that of a female group interaction.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want a solution via leverage, the girl way works. If the other party is not going to be swayed by leverage, then brute force is required. Tdy the girl way first, because sometimes it works, of that fails, let Attila or Ghengis out to play.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor 36 points37 points  (1 child)

You have to manage women with a firm grip. They love finding and destroying the weak. It's in their genes.

Contrary to the tumbler-twats, being bitchy is not being strong. Women know this. Power women bosses get crushed without men to keep their guard. I've seen it time and again over the decades.

[–]FriedHayek 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You have to manage women with a firm grip. They love finding and destroying the weak. It's in their genes.

Only those women who do, those women are enough to become grandmothers.

[–]jiveraffe 5 points5 points [recovered]

Whatever happened to Ironwood?

His blog eventually led me to TRP. Then he just vanished last year.

[–]CaptainWanWingLo 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The sole purpose was to bring you here, and then...vanish.

[–]fingerthemoon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Excellent article.

I realized when I got to the point in it where he's talking about girl scouts, that 3rd wave feminism is largely a rebellion against the Female Social Matrix cloaked as a fight against Patriarchy. Wheels within wheels...

You see, most oppression of women is done by other women, or the FSM. Because they must operate within this Matrix, to fight it they need to be subversive in a delicate and subtle way, never to remove plausible deniability. Never to speak the truth outright... Women are so complex. They usually don't even fully understand themselves and their subconscious motivations behind what they do. I'm beginning to think Feminism was never intended as a direct attack against men (at least not consciously) and what's happening to men as a result is largely unintentional consequence, collateral damage.

(The duplicity of female intent discussed in the article can be corroborated by the book Why Women Have Sex: Women Reveal the Truth About Their Sex Lives, from Adventure to Revenge (and Everything in Between) by evolutionary psychologist David Buss.)

I used to think women had it easier in life, and in more obvious quantifiable ways they do, but the subtext, hidden power struggles, constant weighing of options and biological realities... No wonder they're never happy. I'd rather be a simple man, with simple rules to obtain my happiness and peace of mind.

[–]goldnhorde 79 points80 points  (1 child)

it's easy to see as well ....

You are a woman with a woman boss ... you can't pull "woman stuff" with a woman boss. There is no calling in about your period to your female boss. There is no sniffling with your female boss. the best you can hope for is an older and lonely woman boss that you can play surrogate girl-friend/daughter to.

that's why they hate it.

Me? I have no idea why they are complaining. I have had female bosses for about the last three years. Both were extremely good at their respective jobs and allowed me to run my own projects. they both comments they thought I was handsome and one said I have a really nice butt.

I got to say, I don't know what the ladies were complaining about. I loved hearing my butt was looking nice.

A guy is afraid of HR and the wrong words and the wrong situations when dealing with Women and minorities. I stopped working supervising roles when my boss from two roles ago was taken in front of HR for over 6 months ..... found that there was no kind of wrong doing .... and he was still shipped off to another role and location over the situation. that's right .. he did NOTHING ... and they shipped him off to Siberia so the conversation would never come up again.

[–]razormachine 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I worked at one place that had male boss, however the guy was beta as fuck. He was easily manipulated, and woman are way better in manipulating man than man are, so this whole "who whines the most get's the most" situation happened. Pretty much all the bad stuff were transferred to man, while all the woman got all the good stuff. The whole situation lasted for 2 years, because job opportunities were scarce, when more job opportunities opened most of man simply jumped ship.

There were just 2 of us male workers left, the workplace became extremely woman dominated, and the pressure was so severe that even I had cut my work time to 20 hrs/week.

Our productivity went to shit, and beta-boss got fired and replaced by a woman.

The fact is I got way better treatment under woman boss than under beta-male boss.

[–]bigk12345 54 points55 points  (0 children)

"Men and women can agree on one thing. That they do not trust women" - Pook

[–]rigbed 22 points23 points  (3 children)

Wait for the hamster explanation

[–]playingwithfyre 8 points9 points  (1 child)

RemindMe! 3 days "Shit testing hamsters"

[–]the_calibre_cat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't expect one. This is one of those inconvenient narratives that the media will just neglect to cover.

[–]manifesto18 20 points21 points  (2 children)

No I'm pretty sure I hate working for women too

[–]logicalthinker1 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think this is true. Men have been conditioned so severely to not hate women or fear being labeled sexist. I think this phenomenon might be showing. Women don't suffer from that pressure so they are free to hate.

The female management at my work is bitchy and stuck up. Like everything is a direct challenge to them that need to squash and look tough. The males are approachable, reasonable, fair, leaders, and not off-putting. They are confident in their job and don't need to show off toughness.

[–]RancidTurnip 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Every one of my female bosses have been plenty nice to me, even bordering on favoritism. However, they also expect me to make and implement their decisions for them, removing themselves from any responsibility. Puts me first in line for promotion, but it gets old quick.

[–]Expectations1 17 points18 points  (0 children)

My manager told me she didnt like working with women two months into my new job. I didnt't confirm or deny....because women.

[–]MeatCurtainRod 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I had a female boss once. She was awesome. But because she was so awesome, the girls in the department (including the assistant manager) hated her and they constantly schemed to get her thrown out. Ironically, that boss left for personal reasons, and the assistant manager became manager, and a girl from another department became the assistant manager. Well we all know what happened next.

[–]fraud_93 6 points7 points  (5 children)

As long as the client/employer sticks to the schedule and treat me like a professional, they could be aliens and there would be no problem. Usually the problem starts then the client/employer don't follow the schedule or don't accept delays, even though they don't give a shit about their timing and never finish their shit on time.

I avoid having women as clients, because most of time they'll criticize my work at the same time they have no clue about how to make it, or even improve it.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

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[–]fraud_93 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Not just women, but I avoid working for people from some countries because of that. Everytime I think "I should give them a chance, maybe it was just bad luck", it happens again.

[–]TheBloodEagleX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly hoping for CEOs to get replaced by some Watson like AI. I feel like they'd be better in every way regarding customers, employees, shareholders and company itself.

[–]rockinhard130 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Totally true. Women hate working for/with other women. Source: Women I've known complaining daily about their workmates. They ALWAYS complain about other women, not men.

[–]Willow-girl 4 points5 points  (0 children)

One of the best bosses I've had -- my first mentor, who gave me the first break in my career -- was a woman, but one of the worst bosses I worked for was a crazy bitch, lol.

[–]LewisCross 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Women don't get along with each other, as friends or as coworkers. Women really hate working for other women.

I've seen my wife with her "friends". When we were first married we'd go to parties with her high school friends, friends from her youth. All I'd hear about beforehand was how stressed she was that one of her "friends" would say something to embarrass her (particularly about her past). Then when we left to go home I'd hear about how she didn't have a good time because so and so friend wasn't there.

Sometimes during the parties I'd hear them running down one of the "friends" who wasn't there -- gossiping and talking shit about them.

In the workplace, female secretaries and clerical workers absolutely hate working for female managers. They hate having another woman telling them what to do. "Who the fuck does that young woman think she is?" harrumphs some secretary who's been doing this shit for 30 years, since that whippersnapper was in 6th grade.

Women are part of a "herd". They consider themselves all equals in the herd. So they aren't accustomed to 10 queen bees all giving orders and running things. The herd exists to protect all women, not to form a hierarchy. You have to do some seriously bad shit to get kicked out of the herd. And women almost never kick other women out of the herd.

Men on the other hand are tribe animals. When you get a group of men together, they automatically arrange themselves into a hierarchy, with a couple of leaders and the rest following and helping, each identifying their strengths and weaknesses, each identifying ways they can and should contribute. If you can't or won't contribute, someone will tell you what to do and how to do it. If you can't or won't do that, you get kicked out of the tribe.

[–]TheRedStoic 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Tldr, science actually proves that women hate it when other women have power over them.

They all want to be first in line, no one wants to be first to work.

Great article op. I'll probably be referencing that study.

[–]rigbed 5 points6 points  (4 children)

I disagree that men don't have the drive to bring down a boss. We'll only bring down a man superior to us if he reveals that he's not alpha and nature doesn't wish him to continue being at the top. Women will bring down women for virtually the same reason because technically no women should be above another they're all equal

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (3 children)

I disagree that men don't have the drive to bring down a boss.

"Men might like or hate a boss, but they're no driven to wanting to bring him down the same way women are."

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Yeah if a boss is good there's no reason to do that. If he's bad you may argue. Women see this as absolute value: boss=bad.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

If boss is bad, walk away. If woman is a bitch, walk away. Be a man with options.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah i meant, if the boss is bad you may argue it's better to leave. I didn't mean starting stupid shenanigans campaigns designed to just fuck yourself over.

[–]GodFan 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Female and boss should be an oxymoron. Women are leaches and emotionally fragile. Contrary to what feminists want to believe, men didn't doom women to lesser positions in the human hierarchy. Naturally, they did it to themselves.

[–]highenergysanders 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've had three female bosses.

The first was a razor sharp, cut throat, driven woman on her way to the top. She taught me tons about the importance of playing the game correctly and how to control people's perception of you to move up.

The second was a buddy type of boss. Her passion was elevating other people. She busted her ass to get me more responsibilities and exposure. She ended up driving me into a big promotion.

The final and current boss is an incredibly seasoned and bright person. She treats me as a thought partner and gives me high profile projects to work on. She's sent me on business trips, always includes me in conversations with executives and high ups, and is always looking out for ways to build my resume.

My first male boss was some old guy punching the clock until retirement. He didn't give 2 fucks anymore and pretty much just had me do whatever I wanted. I learned nothing and went nowhere under him.

The second was a nice enough guy buy he was green and didn't have any idea what he was doing.

If you approach work with this mentality you're probably going to end up shooting yourself in the foot.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 1 point2 points  (0 children)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Petronius, you are on a fucking rampage lately mate.

I was on my main account this morning and your thread was top of The_Donald and I come here and here you are again.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

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[–]TheReformist94 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Women are cunts.it's pretty obvious

[–]Kingofmyworld909 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't see why men would ever have a problem (unless the girl is fugly) working "under" females.

[–]manakiii -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't get it, isn't this post sort of circlejerking?

[–]Areu4realm8 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

i would never have a woman as my boss. thats some social cuck shit

[–]highenergysanders 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Still in that anger phase, eh mate?

[–]Areu4realm8 0 points1 point  (2 children)

not at all. i never liked the idea working under a female's lead

[–]highenergysanders 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So yes then. You're still mad at women and in that phase where you're too good to interact with them.

[–]Areu4realm8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

no im not mad at anyone. i live in easter europe when men are regarded as superior in the professional area. i was raised with that convition. no sjw will change my mind now that im grown. having a woman boss is humiliating in my culture