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Red Pill TheoryVERBAL JUDO has an important place in every man's mental toolbox. [Repost] (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Endorsed ContributorMentORPHEUS

In the game of social hierarchy, the ones who rise to Alpha positions are the ones who can best understand and lead other individuals and groups. It is usually the outcome of conflicts that cements peoples' positions in the hierarchy, so strong verbal skills are important.

VERBAL JUDO turns the force of attackers against themselves, as opposed to attacking back. You'll need it most for nondisposable relationships like family, bosses, colleagues, etc.

This post is an introduction to the concepts of Verbal Judo, and how to apply it in situations that can make or break your position in a given group's pecking order. For those who have wondered, "How can I become more Alpha, without becoming that asshole? this might be part of the answer. Verbal Judo has some elements in common with persuasion, but unlike persuasion, ideally seeks a state of mutual equilibrium rather than dominance or complete position conversion.


Verbal Judo Theory

Communication has many layers. Whether it's a shit test like "You always want sex!" or a Mother-in-law who whines, "You never visit!", there is more to the message than just the words, or even the body language.

  • Status of each participant Communication can happen within a dominant/submissive frame, such as parent/child, boss/employee, officer/enlistee etc, or within a nominally equal frame, such as co-workers, colleagues, siblings, some couples, etc. Healthy unequal power dynamic relationships include Captain/First Mate model relationships, Management/employees, and military ranks. Unhealthy ones include a mother-in-law who treats you and your wife like children, a coercive "friend," and an insubordinate employee or soldier. Trying to outright flip a relationship of unequals may result in resistance and a needlessly costly battle. Though it might seem counterintuitive to the aspiring Alpha, sometimes the best social option is to approach these situations more from a position of nominal equals.

  • Mode of communication Linguistics professor Virginia Satir identified five major communication styles: Blamer, Placater, Computer, Distractor, and Leveler. Recognizing the type an adversary is using allows you to calibrate your response accordingly. For example, if your boss is in blaming mode and you really need to level with him to resolve the problem, you might have to respond in placater or computer mode until he calms down enough to speak level, as closer to nominal equals. Also, consider the loop of two Placaters trying to decide where to go for lunch, or the chaos of an office full of female Distractors tasked with working together on an important project.

  • Tone and inflection The same words can have different meanings or intensity when uttered with lazy passivity or stern aggression. Verbal Judo seldom recommends being the loudest or more aggressive voice. Try this: the more loud and agitated the other party becomes, the softer and calmer you become. This REALLY pisses angry people off, where a yelling match would actually satisfy them.

  • Body Language This is an important communication channel worthy of its own post. Body language is usually involuntary, and when there is a discrepancy between a person's words and their body language, the body language is usually correct. Assuming a nominally equal body language can prevent or help break an unproductive pattern of dominance/submission. Examples at the personal level include rising to shake someone's hand eye-to-eye, and on the international level holding meetings at a round table to eliminate implied superiority of any individual. Judo suggests that bending to or pivoting away from these power plays is often a better option than attempting to assume the dominant role, which frankly isn't always ours to grab in every situation.

  • Presuppostions A seemingly simple sentence can have a freight of presuppositions loaded into it. These might be the dogma of political parties, feminism, even a dash of Disney storylines. Manipulative people effortlessly dish out communication loaded with presuppositions which are veiled attacks, and if you take the bait and respond to the presupposition, you've gone into their frame and lost the debate in the eyes of everyone present, sometimes not even realizing the extent of what happened. These presuppositions tend to fall into a few common patterns that are easy to learn to recognize and maneuver correctly.


Patterns of attack

Common attack patterns include, "Even YOU should...", "A person who...", and "If you REALLY..." Let's consider the above example, an LTR arguing, "You ALWAYS want sex!" This seemingly simple statement is actually loaded with presuppositions.

  • 1 You never want anything else BESIDES sex from me
  • 2 There is an amount of sex that is too much at present and you're over that arbitrary line
  • 3 It is somehow wrong of you to want sex from me too often
  • 4 You should feel bad that you want too much sex from me.
  • 5 I feel bad/threatened/etc about this situation

The average person is liable to viscerally respond to the attack and shaming of presuppostion #3/4, and proceed to argue against #1, citing examples of other things they've done as a couple as she shoots them each down, because he failed to address #5. Or, he might passively agree and reduce his demands for sex, worsening the relationship problem in the process.

Assuming this is a baseless shit or comfort test (as opposed to a legitimate complaint), the better Verbal Judo response would be to recognize and NOT accept/display any of the presumed shame of #3/4, or step onto the treadmill of arguing 1/2. Rather, figure out a way to address #5 from within YOUR frame, without falling 100% into hers. Rather than attack back, one could agree she sounds upset about it and solicit a solution as the first move, agree and amplify (carefully), agree and deflect (You BET I love sex with you, but you're not getting any until we [do something she wants but was NOT expecting]). Proficiency at Verbal Judo comes from not only recognizing veiled attacks by their patterns and understanding the nested presuppostions, but responding to them in a way that plays out and exhausts the strength of the attack, rather than clashing with it head-on with certain escalation and collateral damage.


Useful skills for Verbal Judo

Assertiveness Instead of the usual pattern of being passive OR aggressive, an assertive person states his own position while accounting for and respecting the position and interests of the other party. Rather than seeing every human transaction as a zero-sum game where one must lose for another to win, assertiveness seeks win-win situations, which in the long term, can confer higher and more stable social status than aggressive self-interest.

Situational awareness Just as fighting martial arts teach the importance of being aware of your surroundings, Verbal Judo is enhanced by being able to quickly and accurately spot and understand the power structures in a given social situation or landscape. Be observant, and always strive to improve at reading individuals and groups.

Command Voice Like that of a commanding officer. Firm, solid, makes people MOVE without delay or debate. Also, the sense to know when to use this, which is almost never. Much of its power in civilian social life is in the surprise factor.

Stoic, unflappable frame. Don't let others affect your mood or emotions, especially noticibly! Manipulative people tend to be excellent at spotting subtle cues that they're affecting your frame; if you cut off this feedback entirely, it frustrates their efforts.

Fogging This is the technique of nominally agreeing with accusations made against you in an argument, rather than fighting them. The effect is like swinging fists into fog and never making solid contact, which can exhaust and de-escalate an argument. Using the Mother-In-Law example from above:

"You never visit." Now that you mention it, we haven't gotten out there much this year.

"It's like you don't even care about me!" I can see how that might leave you feeling neglected.

Your intended adversary will expend all of their energy and expunge their frustration while you noncommitally agree with them, leaving their argument flattened, their concerns voiced, and the door now open to discuss the matter in terms of your mutual interests, and for you to draw the situation all the way back into your frame without resistance or rancor.


Conclusion Verbal Judo helps establish and maintain a better place in the social pecking order without relegating either party to the extremes of passive and aggressive.

  • Usually an Alpha is the oak, but when circumstances dictate he bend like a reed, Verbal Judo helps maintain frame even with openly manipulative people.

  • Communication has many levels besides the verbal.

  • Parse the presuppositions out of arguments; if you mistakenly respond to one of these, you'll lose.

To learn more I strongly recommend the early editions of The gentle art of verbal self-defense by neurolinguist Suzette Elgin. (Like Dale Carnegie's work, there are myriad later editions of this work, some of which are cheap bastardizations for a more general readership. The original goes into deeper technical detail at a slight expense of readability.) This book lays out and dissects the eight most common verbal attack patterns, as well as presuppositions and the perils of responding to the incorrect ones.


[–][deleted] 78 points79 points  (19 children)

Being an NCO in the Marines, I learned many of these traits. One thing that I find with civilians is their lack of bearing makes them vulnerable to manipulative people. Knowing how to control your emotions or show false emotions is key to controlling an argument.

[–]OilyB 8 points9 points  (6 children)

Hi, could you briefly elaborate on the 'knowing how to show false emotions' bit? Thanks!

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (5 children)

Emotional manipulation, you know the thing women have mastered over hundred of thousands of years. The thing the mass media uses to get its viewers. You know the thing your children use to get what they want... You must have heard of it once or twice during your lifetime.

Learn how women use emotional manipulation to try lock down an alpha, then you are ready to use the exact same tool to manipulate your surroundings.

Albeit this can get you to some goals. Emotional manipulation is a form of manipulation. So you are playing a game. The problem is that your opponent could be better at this game, in terms of reading as well as using it. So you are better off not using it in order to remain clean. On the other hand it is important to read emotional manipulation.

By the way that's also practical politics 101.

[–]OilyB 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Aah, emotional manipulation I know like no other. I'm teaching my boy how to identify it. It's also extensively taught in 'Nonviolent Communication' by Rosenberg. I thought you meant something different when you said 'showing false emotions', but it all makes sense now. Thanks for the effort!

[–]One_friendship_plz 0 points1 point  (2 children)

read emotional manipulation

Well most of the people who do this (women) do it subconsciously..instinctively, how the heck can you read such a thing?

I can tell when a sales guy approaches me with his bullshit, but it's hard to read something that someone doesn't even know they're doing. When it comes out so natural and the person believes their own bullshit, how can you read that?

My strategy has been to just not take people seriously unless they earned my trust.

[–]Manant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Take an exchange with someone and consider if their response(s) were rational or not. If illogical, they may be emotional and can be rebuffed. You can only be manipulated if you let your emotions bypass your rationality.

As for instincts, I believe we have our own to combat manipulation. If you feel anxiety your gut is telling you something is off. If confused, your brain is telling you something is illogical, or that there may be gaps in the story.

All too often we ignore our own feelings in favour of someone else's merely because they're being presented as facts rather than the (often subconscious) perceptions they really are.

[–]SetConsumes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Typically things like eyes and mouth expressions not agreeing are signs that someone is manipulating the emotions they're portraying.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Art of seduction is truly is truly enlightening.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 36 points37 points  (13 children)

Great article.

You ALWAYS want sex!"

This is said by women who are pushing men towards betabux mode, usually just at the point where they've sealed the deal. It also includes the implication "you want sex with me more than I want it with you".

It's how women lock down provider men through control, withdrawal of sex, and using "you always want sex" as a shaming mechanism to make this mechanism continue to work. It's a demand for the continuation of resources (attention, commitment, money) in the absence of her paltry commitment (sex). The idea is that the man (having demonstrated either commitment or other form of lacking other options) doubles down on providing and gives up his own best sexual strategy interests in favour of hers - driven by her shaming. (Women always know exactly when to deliver this statement, it's always just at the point of male commitment. It signals the end of the fun part of the relationship for you).

Women do not say this in casual relationships where they try to get as much sex as possible. They say this to committed, loyal men who they are instinctively losing attraction to due to this commitment - replacing mutual sexual attraction with control and shaming.

Conversely, what do women do in alpha/casual relationships? "Sorry honey, I'm still sore from the hard fucking we enjoyed last night, can I suck you instead?" / "Sorry, I really want to, can we do it in the morning instead?" and so on. She'll be accommodating, she values you, she'll be flattering, she'll demonstrate her attraction and so on.

If you ever hear "All you want is sex" or "You always want sex" from a woman, the relationship has already ended.

This isn't something you verbally work around, it's something you physically/emotionally work around by expanding your options and reducing your commitment.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

you know its funny but ive always automatically been a manipulative fuck, and able to clearly spot and defuse manipulation. even when i started reading stuff like NLP i realised i already do most of it. idk why, but its just something i have ingrained. ive had girls use the "always want sex" and i deflect it back and reframed it everytime to point out it was THEM who had the problem by putting 0 effort into a relationship and ignoring a mans biological needs for sex. i can do that with everything else to, i always spot the hidden meaning behind things people say, they are always trying to frame things or package things based on what they want and what they think, and i can flip it back on them, and i realised most people dont catch it when i do the same thing. just a funny thing i noticed.

i also dont think that necessarily means the relationship is dead if she isnt putting out. it means you're doing something wrong and she isn't turned on, but like a typical manipulator, the women goes straight to framing the situation into making you think you have the problem, that you are forcing her into too much sex. turning it back on them also makes them realise there is something wrong in the relationship, forces them to admit WHY they dont want sex, and it can be worked on. or you can just completely ignore it and work on your own inner game until the girl wants to fuck you more.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

ignoring a mans biological needs for sex.

I wouldn't phrase my problem as their problem, at least not any more. I'm more likely to agree with them, and then manouevre the conversation round to subtly threatening to remove my commitment, implying strongly that I have other options that I'm very willing to explore.

The problem doesn't arise for me because they already know that I prioritise sex. They can't use relationship-leverage against my sex drive because they know that sex comes first with me. That means they know their options are sex or lose mattyanon.

You are lucky to be naturally somewhat immune to these manipulations. I've had to learn it, and most people don't get even that far.

makes them realise there is something wrong in the relationship, forces them to admit WHY they dont want sex

Except women are like children - talk is pointless.

[–]MadSparty 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My very first girlfriend and I broke up after this came up in our last conversation. She was avoiding sex and I outright told her that we didn't have enough sex to satisfy me in the relationship. She replied, "Sex is all our relationship is about!"

I've felt ashamed about it for a while, letting my desire for it end my first relationship. I think this thread broke the final thread hah.

[–]Estrangeiro75 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Got married in June. I received a "all you want is sex" just after a weekend of parties and events we MANAGED together. Didn't think it would end this early.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I've heard "all you want is sex" and I've known women who literally cannot get enough sex with me. I'm not coming at this from one point of view - I've been on both sides of this AF / BB dynamic, and seen how their response to their dwindling sexual enthusiasm is BLAMED ON THE MAN. You haven't changed, you have probably calmed down slightly in your sexual expectations. But she changes, and it's your fault.

I find using shame as a weapon of blame and control like this to be absolutely disgusting. I utterly condemn women for this behaviour, it's simple manipulation to get what she wants at your expense.

Don't stand for it.

Didn't think it would end this early.

It's good that you recognise that it's over. Most men don't. Most will try to patch it up, negotiate attraction, do-more-things-for-her, accept the reduction in sex, etc. That's fine, but I wouldn't do it.

How long have you been together other than the marriage? From what I can tell you have a maximum New Relationship Energy of 3-5 years, and you only get that long if you really know what you're doing.

[–]Estrangeiro75 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I knew her for a few years, but have been dating around till June 2015, when I got serious with her (I was in abundance mentality at the time). Got married in June 2016. Today was the big Beta Bucks day, never had one woman being that explicit in BBing me! Apart from getting a higher share of my salary, she wants most of the money we got from the events we managed together, since she did soooo much work. Which percentage, she will not say, she leaves it to my conscience (shame shame shame)

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Apart from getting a higher share of my salary, she wants most of the money we got from the events we managed together, since she did soooo much work.

Why are you giving her any of your salary ???

I fear you're totally in the BB zone with this one.

[–]Estrangeiro75 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We have separate bank account, we put together part of our income for the "joint expenses", like rent, food, etc. It can be just fair, depending on how much is put by each of us.

[–]Askada 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good follow-up. I didn't like that sentence as example, because it implied much more.

[–]Ozymanberg 0 points1 point  (3 children)

What would you suggest is the best course of action? I'm not referring exactly to the "trying not to lose her" mindset, but in the abundance mindset. Do you just shrug it off or agree and amplify like "That's not true. I also want wings from time to time." Because the way you put it doesn't seem like she's giving a comfort test, just a regular ol' shit test.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 14 points15 points  (1 child)

What would you suggest is the best course of action? [when she says "You only want sex"]

I know you don't want to hear this, but you're trying to treat the symptom rather than the disease.

The response to her doesn't matter really, so long as you don't react badly. You might as well just say "sure, whatever". Or "nah, I want it sucked too" or "yeah, and threesomes".

But there is a fundamental problem here: she doesn't want you, doesn't deeply desire you, she does not respect you.

This is what needs fixing... you can't expect the correct snappy come back to change her attitude and make her kneel in front of you and give you the best head of your life. The relationship fundamentally needs changing and that almost certainly means raising your SMV, expanding your options, taking her less seriously, demoting her to FWB, etc.

Anything else is "trying to make the relationship work", and that kills the female sex drive stone cold dry and dead.

You gotta be more of a mindset of "this works or it doesn't, I'm happy either way I got options". Sadly having this attitude won't work if she already sees you as basically beta provider, because she won't viscerally care if you leave.

[–]Ozymanberg 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really appreciate the insight. It made me look at it in another way and I think it's very important. I was looking at it way too literally, as in "you do this, she'll do that". I usually fall into this trap so I gotta catch myself.

I don't really see it as sad because as long as I'm getting my dick sucked, I don't care if she doesn't care lol. I was just asking what to do in the technical terms of shit-testing and frame, I guess. Again, thanks for the info.

[–]Vpierdol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

in the abundance mindset

A veiled (or not - if you literally have options for tonight and don't give a fuck about her) dread instilling response.

  • "All you want is sex."
  • "This is how I am. I need this much - you wouldn't believe how many times i had to make changes in my life to keep up with myself."

[–]whythecynic 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This is solid all-round advice. It does require discretion in when to be tough and when to be soft, and this means that it is a skill. Don't just file this away after you read it, start practicing it in everyday life.

It cannot be overstated that command voice is to be used rarely, if ever. I have used command voice exactly once in my civilian career. A representative from another company was starting to whine on and on about the problem we had at hand, blaming my boss for everything, and generally being an obstructive bitch. I said his name, exactly once, command voice. Everybody in the room instinctively shut the fuck up and looked at me, and he was instantly taking orders from me.

This is where assertiveness comes into play. Don't use command voice, choke, and have people staring at you blankly. You'll look even more like an utter idiot than if you hadn't gone full-on CO. Always know what you want to make happen, and follow up decisively.

If you command someone this way in civilian life, always make sure you come to a mutually beneficial solution, because you may end up in need of their help some day. Try to make them feel like you two arrived at the solution together, and always give them a cut of whatever benefits the solution provides. Trust me, don't burn bridges you don't have to.

[–]like_jinkies_man 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Thanks for the post, it's very edifying.

Question, though. How does one become unflappable and stoic? Just looking for more resources to improve my frame--- I melt under certain criticisms.

Thanks!

[–]whythecynic 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Practice, practice, practice. Shameless practice. Go out and interact with people without the fear of failure or embarrassment, while still keeping your wits about you. That means no drinking and no drugs.

Like everything else in life, this is a skill. If Aristotle was right about one thing, it is that many things in life we take for innate or unchanging are actually skills attained through habit and practice.

[–]whythecynic 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Although there is something to be said about how to practice.

Make a note (mental or physical, whatever it takes) of how you react emotionally to anything. Anything at all. Knowledge is the first step on the road to success, and is what separates us from beasts.

Go out and interact with people. While you're doing that, note your emotional reactions. Write them down, tape the conversations if you have to, because replaying them will jog your memory of how you were feeling at the time.

Force yourself to relive events and conversations in your mind, and rate yourself on how well you did. The instinct is to avoid or to rationalize shame and failures; don't fall prey to that. You are here to improve, not to make yourself feel better for a day or two until the next distraction comes along.

Eventually you will come to a point where you notice trends and triggers, and through conscious practice, you can start reacting less obviously to emotional changes in yourself.

I'll end by saying that emotions are a healthy part of life, and by no means should you try to cut them out. The trick is getting to a point where you know how to conceal or disguise your emotions for fun and profit.

[–]Orbiter42 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Force yourself to relive events and conversations in your mind, and rate yourself on how well you did.

a side note on that. theirs this gal i'd talk to, and i'd start to feel this urge to move in and kiss her. but i've noticed that many other men seem to respond to her the same way. i'v held my self back for a long time trying to figure out why this is. then i noticed it. she would pop her lips. i'd be looking at her eyes, listening to what she's saying. and she's using body language to effect my subconscious.

slightly off the subject, but body language, can be like sex. we have emotional responses to emotional stimuli. and i think that by mastering body language, you can gain a stronger sense of a situation.

[–]ReddittFeist 2 points3 points  (0 children)

BTW, the expression Verbal Judo was invented by George Thompson in his book Verbal Judo: The Gentle Art of Persuasion

Guys might find his books interesting

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=verbal+judo

[–]Mckallidon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great post. Years ago I read a book about Aikido by George Leonard. Brilliant author btw. But in the book he talks a lot about how the principles of aikido are physical and spiritual and that applying aikido to how you interact with people has tremendous benefits, especially when dealing with difficult or hostile situations and that the easiest way to win a conflict isn't to escalate it, but to turn it around. The hard part is figuring out what to say to what but while keeping these ideas in mind I have mostly come out on top in these situations by always spinning it around towards a positive direction instead of "winning". If you make it so no one loses you wind up the biggest winner because you stay respectable and winning the audience while your enemy is forced to either defeat them self by losing face or accept your frame.

I will definitely add this to my reading list because it seems to be a great supplement to this line of thinking.

[–]PaulMurrayCbr 1 point2 points  (2 children)

The basic principle of turning the attack on the attacker is go meta. Go after the context. What actually got said is irrelevant. There are a dozen ways to do it, but in a nutshell: "what do you mean by that?", or perhaps better "why would you say a thing like that?".

You don't respond to the content of what was said, instead you go after the fact that it was said.

Oh, and anything more than two sentences ago no longer matters. The only thing that matters is right here, right now, scoring a point in response to the thing your opponent just said just a moment ago.

"Lets go to the beach!"

"How come we always do what you want to do?"

Bam, the gauntlet has been thrown down and it's on. The discussion is no longer about going to the beach - it's about "us", about how "we" make decisions.

A possible response is

"You never say that when we are doing what you want to do".

The topic is no longer "how we make decisions", it's "your hypocrisy in the things you say". Notice how already, two exchanges in, the beach no longer matters.

"Oh? Like what?"

"What do you mean 'like what'?"

Listing examples is a mistake. Here we see the general utility of the old "what do you mean by that?".

Escalate, escalate, escalate. Never hesitate, never back down, and for God's sake never apologise. Above all, don't bother responding to the surface topic. It's a trap.

Oh, and do it with a cheeky grin. It's a game, after all.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMentORPHEUS[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Excellent points, thank you.

Readers need examples to see how to apply these techniques, but it's extremely important to truly learn and internalize the principles of Verbal Judo. The reason is, it's a dynamic game that one cannot win or even effectively play using canned responses or scripts.

[–]PaulMurrayCbr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another example of context is "How can you bring that up here, in a restaraunt?" or "at a wedding?".

And another old favourite is "ok, what's this really about?". It works because women - men too, sometimes - really are indirect when it comes to opening relationship negotiatons. There's a lot on the line, after all. A complaint about stacking the laundry is seldom really about stacking the laundry.

With context, you can trhow in an outright red-herring. Throw in the whole damn kitchen sink:

"is this really about junior's grades"?

"No, it's nothing to do with junior's grades."

"Oh, so you don't want to talk about how junior is doing in school."

Note how the subject, once again cas been changed within the space of a sentence. It's no longer about junior's grades, it's about someone's attitude to talking about junior's grades.

Realistically, you will never be able to pull this off. But these examples might help you recognise when it's being done to you.

[–]BassNet 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is important, I definitely need practice with this

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A side note about the "too much sex" thing:

A sore pussy is definitely a thing. But she will let you know. If a girl is really into you, I can't see that running dry unless you do something really unattractive.

[–]poopcasso 3 points4 points  (16 children)

This post would be better if you had taken the time to explain the terms and concepts you are introducing. For instance, you talk about a linguistics professor who found that there are five major communication styles. You listed them up but failed to explain them. This takes away from your post because it makes your post incomplete. What is a placater or a computer? Is a distractor what I think it is? For instance, the concept above it, about status of each participant, you give both the healthy and the unhealthy examples of the dominant/submissive status.

I feel this post is way too short to be regarded as an introduction. I read it, got introduced to a bunch of new words, but didn't learn anything new or interesting because those words are just different ways of saying something we all already instinctively know. You basically told us something like, if you wanna fish, you should know that a fishing rod will help you. For the fishing rod, you will have fish line and a fish hook attached to the end of it. You want to put a bait on the hook, to attract the fishies.

I mean, who didn't already know communication is important? We want to know the science and facts behind the important bits.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (14 children)

at what point should you do your own research and stop asking for hand holding.

You have the names, and the terms, get to work

[–]poopcasso 6 points7 points  (11 children)

If that's really your attitude, what's the point of people writing posts here? Or anywhere for that matter? If you have arguments or theories, or want to teach people new concepts, you should back it up with hard-facts and analogies/stories that explain the concepts. "Oh here's some words, google them if you're interested" is not a good post. I spent time to give constructive feedback to the writer so he can improve on his writing. I tell him it could be better and say what could be better.

What do you bring with your comment? You are saying what we already know, that we could just google shit up. Ie, you brought nothing to this with your comment.

[–]YourRussianUncle 1 point2 points  (6 children)

There is value in outlining broad concepts, naming them, and allowing the reader to explore them further. Once the reader explores them further HIMSELF, a conversation about specifics as well as concepts can occur on a higher level.

To complain that someone did not give you information that you did not know before in an easy to read and complete fashion lacks insight and self motivation.

[–]poopcasso 0 points1 point  (5 children)

This post would be better

That's what I wrote. What are you talking about?

[–]solidsnork 0 points1 point  (3 children)

No one here is missing out except you. Just don't bother doing any of your own research, it would be far too hard. Be sure to downvote this because you are a butthurt lazy asshole.

[–]poopcasso 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If that's the truth the top comment wouldn't have upvotes.

[–]solidsnork 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Oh shit you mean there are other lazy people who want to be spoon fed too and they agree with you? Holy shit will wonders ever cease?

[–]poopcasso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You see I simply argued his point.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

The write about their progress and what they've learned. If you're not at where they are and show you something new, feel free to look into it further.

Assuming that you're the baseline that needs to be talked to is ego. I understand the stuff fully, but I've also read the entirety of vinkatesh rao, and Machiavellis works, so I get where it's going.

Instead of critiquing that he should have written a book for dummies, you could have asked specific follow up questions.

That's a good attitude to have iterative learning, not spoon feeding

[–]poopcasso 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Woah dude, chill. You had to humblebragfest to win an online discussion, huh? Let's end it here.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (1 child)

No, if you believed your words, own them. None of this passive crap.

And if you think reading books are bragging....

[–]poopcasso 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Assuming that you're the baseline that needs to be talked to is ego. I understand the stuff fully, but I've also read the entirety of vinkatesh rao, and Machiavellis works, so I get where it's going.

It's the most neckbeard validation seeking shit ever.

[–]solidsnork -1 points0 points  (1 child)

This. It annoys the hell out of me when lazy people say" Burden of proof is on you to convince me." No. Research yourself you lazy assholes. If I told you that you are eating poison and you say prove it, why should I? I informed you, do the research and if you think I'm wrong then continue eating. I'm not the one killing himself. Is it the school system that is pushing this lazy behavior?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's the only way any of this works. If you don't put in work, you can't grow.

Besudes, it self selects for ego protection

[–]Windryder 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Her: "You ALWAYS want sex!"

Me: "Yep, there aren't a lot of times where I'd turn it down, that's for sure."

Then I'd grin and say something like "so, sex?"

[–]solarcon6 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On the other hand, judo is just judo - defensive tactics. It is useful in avoiding unnecessary confrontation or keeping clean reputation. In order to dominate, one must learn the offensive tactics.

Good offensive response to "You ALWAYS want sex!" could be the mentioned dissection to the 5 presuppositions, not even bothering with denying or dodging them.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mode of communication Linguistics professor Virginia Satir identified five major communication styles: Blamer, Placater, Computer, Distractor, and Leveler. Recognizing the type an adversary is using allows you to calibrate your response accordingly.

Could you perhaps go into more detail on this or have any recommended resources with regards to it?

[–]mummersfarce_is_done 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most of this stuff comes quite naturally to me at this stage. It's about learning how to listen to your instincts. Also it's about feeling like an emotionally strong person inside. When no words or yelling can harm you, you can easily outmanuever their game. Words are wind

Frame. It's all about developing frame. Whose frame dictates the conversation?

[–]RedBallroom 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is an excellent post, which combined with your previous field report proves that you have truly internalized the red pill. I appreciate that you attempt to fit the red pill into the mold of daily interactions, instead of going the other way around and trying to force red pill precepts onto every corner of your life.

Many men on this subreddit seem to think the ideal way to involve women in your life is simply to plate them, maybe LTR occasionally, and move on. They completely disregard the fact that communicating with women in non-sexual relationships can drastically affect your SMV in a given social group. TRP contains vast amounts of information about women and social dynamics in general, yet few posters seek to apply it to anything more complex than gaming women or maintaining an LTR.

For instance, my passion that I have devoted years of my life to is competitive ballroom dance. In this type of hobby, sleeping with your dance partner is highly discouraged, as we all know that sleeping with women will over time lead them to unrealistic expectations of commitment. Learning to utilize the skills outlined in this post becomes a necessity to long term success.

Outside of physical features, the way you communicate with others in your social group is the most important factor in your SMV. And as the OP explained, attempting to dominate the conversation is not always possible or even advisable. Posts such as this one truly add to the skill set of a TRP man instead of simply rehashing basic TRP precepts ad naseum.

[–]BlackJ1 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Excellent post.

However I'm still not understanding the scenario in which a woman tells you: "You always want sex!"

Is the A&A response the best?

[–]dammit_redskins 2 points2 points [recovered]

Just don't let it phase you. A&A would definitely "work" in that situation but at that point you should start being less and less invested in her and more invested in other girls. She's wasting your time if she's holding sex from you.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I had a look at the book you recommended and I thought it was very lightweight. But Im sure there's something in what you have posted.

[–]soyDonEladio -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I couldn't find a torrent for this book. Has anyone else had any luck?

[–]ihatetrols -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Fuck verbal Judo. Now verbal Muay Thai...