TheRedArchive

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50

I received a message from a new user and a few things immediately went through my mind:

  • Is this a troll, do they have an agenda?
  • How can I fully explain all the moving pieces that are jumbled up in this question?

In the process of writing my reply I realized that I was covering a lot of ground, and dedicating more time than I had initially anticipated. Which Is why I have turned it into a thread. Now /u/llaym can ask their question without fear of a ban, and my reply can be shared with the community and possibly help clear up some confusion. Hopefully, this will also generate some interesting conversations.


llaym I encourage you to participate on the sub and comment on posts. You should also check out the IRC room if you haven't already. Be sure to read the RPW sidebar as well.

You have some common misunderstandings about TRP and RPW so I encourage you to review this thread.

We talk a lot about the Captain/First Mate dynamic, but not all the ladies there utilize that method, which is fine. There's a common assumption that every Red Pill Woman wants to find, date (and possibly marry) a Red Pill man - which isn't the case at all. Red Pill Women want to find a good man, and the chances of meeting a Red Pill Man out in the world is slim. More to the point - not all RP Men are good matches for an LTR (for various reasons). Some of the gentlemen are only interested in spinning plates, or they want a relationship where the woman is exclusive to him while he has the freedom to date other women. Those are both perfectly fine strategies for the RP gentlemen to pursue - but no Red Pill Woman in her right mind would willingly pursue that kind of arrangement. We advocate for exclusive relationships. Many of the ladies on the RPW sub are with men that have no idea that “Red Pill” is even a thing besides two random words thrown together. Being a good man doesn’t require that man to know anything about RP, many of the men that the ladies are attracted/married to/or dating do have traditionally masculine traits, but not all of them. In many ways “good” is subjective, and there’s a lot that goes into shaping chemistry between two people and how their personalities will work together within a relationship.

TRP male users can focus on one of several different goals (spinning plates, monk mode, LTRs/Marriage etc). Not every RP man wants an exclusive LTR or marriage. The users are by and large focused solely on having more success with women and acquiring sex. It's easy for men to get commitment and build relationships - but sustaining a healthy level of attraction and having regular physical intimacy is more difficult.

RPW focuses on the female dating strategy. Women have an easy time acquiring physical intimacy - but earning the commitment of a good man proves to be much more elusive and difficult for many women. The single women on RPW are looking to improve themselves so that they can earn the commitment and affection of a good man. The women that are already in relationships or married are here to learn how to improve their relationships and minimize bad behaviors. The female sexual strategy focuses on obtaining commitment. Women have an easy time getting sex, but a harder time earning commitment. Women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the gatekeepers of commitment.

This is why both TRP and RPW advises its respective users to 'protect' their highest assets. For men, that means holding off on exclusivity until the woman proves to be worthy of that commitment. For women, that means holding off on sex until exclusivity/commitment has been established. It's called the 'war of the sexes' for a reason. Both sides want certain things, and the goals are often at odds with each other.

That said, it's inaccurate to assume that RPW users are seeking out, or are matched with RP male users. RPW is not the dating pool or harem of TRP. Both subs work off the same base of knowledge and concepts. RPW works to minimize the damaging effects of "AWALT" behaviors as well as self-improvement. It is true that there are some couples where both members are active on the respective RP subs - but that is by no means the norm.

As for your question about fidelity - it's the responsibility of every woman to screen for a good man, and work to create a healthy relationship. You have to know what your deal-breakers are, and you have to make sure that you pick a man that has earned your trust and affection. A woman has to bring enough to the table on her end so that she can earn the commitment of a quality man - which is why it's just as important to know what your personal faults are as it is to know how to identify red-flags in your romantic interests.

I do not encourage users to tolerate cheating, that said, if you are with an attractive man – he is going to get attention from other women. It’s also important to realize that if you are an attractive woman – you are going to get attention from other men. Know the boundaries of your relationship, and protect those boundaries as best you can. Having personal integrity and being an ambassador not only for your SO/H, but also for your relationship – will go a long way towards making sure he never needs to actively seek attention from other women. It’s important not to compare your relationship to the relationships you see on TRP. If reading TRP upsets you, or discourages you too much, then stop going there. Focus on your own journey.


[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post! I like this idea about being an ambassador for you and your SO. You are also a representative of your relationship. There was a post about not airing out alllll of your grievances to your friends that I thought was really important. Sometimes you do need another womans opinion but then there are times where you are just bitching about your man. It is so important to demonstrate that you are a unit and you are unified through love and fidelity. So thank you for this.

[–]always-be-closing 11 points12 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is why both TRP and RPW advises its respective users to 'protect' their highest assets. For men, that means holding off on exclusivity until the woman proves to be worthy of that commitment. For women, that means holding off on sex until exclusivity/commitment has been established. It's called the 'war of the sexes' for a reason.

Both sides want certain things, and the goals are often at odds with each other.

It astounds me how almost all cultures came to develop rituals solving these complex problems.

Despite there being a tremendous diversity of sexual practice and culture, it is almost uniformly the cases that massive and successful civilizations across time spans and religions all developed systems prioritizing male martial and material virtue, and female chastity and deference, with men's roles being 'outside' the home, and disciplinarian, and female's roles being 'inside' the home, and nurturing.

The walk up the aisle is a father literally handing off his daughter to a younger man taking over the provider and protector role, the proposal is a formalized proposition, getting underneath the woman in a play-submission and offering a literal signet of material investment to ask for her sexual exclusivity, the courtship as mutual interview, dowry and bride-price, etc.

It simply can't be accidental or coincidental.

[–]CamusSeesSumac 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Despite there being a tremendous diversity of sexual practice and culture, it is almost uniformly the cases that massive and successful civilizations across time spans and religions all developed systems prioritizing male martial and material virtue, and female chastity and deference, with men's roles being 'outside' the home, and disciplinarian, and female's roles being 'inside' the home, and nurturing.

Interesting. I figured most large civilizations value male martial/material virtue, and female deference, because most large civilizations became powerful through male martial virtue (and as a consequence, female deference). There are a number of tribal cultures that have matriarchs, so our society's structure is necessarily not biologically determined. Rather, it's simply the historical roots of the cultures that have propagated and become dominant/successful.

[–]throw_the_switch 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There's lots of interesting research, theories and evidence to how societies became more or less patriarchal - some physical:

agriculture development means cultures who mostly use ploughing (need for brute strength) made men more active 'outside'. societies where ploughing was the norm became more patriarchal than those where hoeing (fine for both sexes).

Societies with abundant resources tend to be less patriarchal, less focused on sexual exclusivity/lineage concerns - less intragroup competition for resources means survival can be focused on the whole group.

Patriarchal lineage very common in societies with high instances of war - children of conquered people and conquerors are automatically of the conquering society.

Quora has a really interesting topic on lots of reasons with evidence, if anyone is interested :)

[–]CamusSeesSumac 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Cool! Gonna read this at home.

[–]StingrayVC 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

spot on

[–]llaym 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is much appreciated, thank you PhantomDream09 for taking the time to explain so thoroughly! This has been very helpful indeed.

[–]katnip86 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you! I browse TRP and MarriedRP somewhat regularly, because I find the field reports enlightening. I could see how the uninitiated could be put off by the locker room talk, though.

[–]nopooq 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have a stupid question regarding the following:

For men, that means holding off on exclusivity until the woman proves to be worthy of that commitment. For women, that means holding off on sex until exclusivity/commitment has been established

I'm having a hard time understanding this. If you have a man and woman who both employ the respective behaviors described above, would they end up not having sex until they're in a committed relationship? Like, they'll just spend time with each other (not having sex) until the man decides to be committed to the woman, and then the woman agrees to sex? I'm not sure if I am understanding this correctly.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hahaha - that's not a stupid question, and it's a difficult thing for many to navigate. Women have to display their value outside of the bedroom with a good/desirable man. It's a negotiation in many ways, and the terms of those negotiations vary from couple to couple. Dating with purpose is very important.

Women that want to earn the commitment of a good man will have to show that they bring a lot of desirable attributes and behaviors to the table. Men that chase desirable women have to show that they can offer something others cannot.

LTR/marriage minded women have to seek out men that have similar interests and goals in terms of getting married etc.

I included a few links in the initial post and you should be sure to check them out. There are some particularly good discussions that happened here and here.

The balance between increasing intimacy and exclusivity is tricky and it depends a lot on the two people in question, what they bring to the table and what they have in common.

[–]nopooq 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks so much for explaining this to me! Makes sense. I'll check out those links.

[–]aforemangrill 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm really new here. Still learning, and had a lot of... difficulty with the pill.

Had a real enlightening moment realising that a lot of red pill men are not compatible with (or interested in?) RPW. Of course TRP men will want to exploit a system that has negatively affected them. Some of our reactions are just different. Have to find a partner with the same wants and dreams as me, and use the pill to realise the faults and falsehoods in the ways I was taught, and my thinking and reactions to things.

So reading what an experienced user speak on the same sort of things was very helpful, thank you.

[–]dicktamer 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Exactly! I know I would never date/marry a man who frequented TRP.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

well written post, phantom.

be a person of high integrity, be at your best in all areas of your life, be an advocate for your partner and your relationship.

[–]mensafloyd 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because when women substitute irrational/emotional shit tests for proper vetting, due to sheer laziness or because Cosmopolitan Magazine "society" tells them to, then the rational counter-strategy for men is to dissect those shit tests, reconfigure them and use them to their advantage.

If women, like llaym worried more about having the perfect relationship (relative pro-active manifestation), rather than the perfect partner (absolute and universal ideal), then those risks/concerns are mitigated from the get go.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

The main reason its preached to keep your day game strong, even when married and such is because the 'inevitable divorce when she branch swings' mindset. Most of the posts you'll find in askmen and the like of men who got divorced are of questions like "I'm 40 and completely forgot how to interact with women where do I begin".

Keeping your day game strong, helps you if you were to reach that situation as well as helps apply slight levels of dread every so often via your observable and measurable skills within the sexual marketplace.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Desirable men don't have to work to remind themselves that they are desirable, nor do they have 'practice' being attractive to other women...because they actually are desirable.

I understand why some RP male users may need to use day game/flirtation to prove to themselves (and their SO/W) that they are attractive and can pull attention...but I'm saying that naturally successful and masculine men pull attention without trying. It's the naturally masculine men that most RPW's are pursuing.

A woman shouldn't pursue a man that needs to 'remind' himself that he has outside options. A woman should pursue a man that wants a relationship with her even though he has other options. It's not an accomplishment to secure the commitment of a man no other woman wants. Just as it's not an accomplishment for a man to sleep with a woman that says 'yes' to every offer. Being with an attractive man means that other women will notice, and being the wife/SO to such a man requires mindfulness and balance.

Keeping your day game strong, helps you if you were to reach that situation

It's the man's job to make sure the relationship doesn't fall apart.

as well as helps apply slight levels of dread every so often via your observable and measurable skills within the sexual marketplace.

Dread is effective when it isn't forced or fabricated, and some women do require more dread than others. A woman that observes her man actively pursuing other women doesn't feel dread because he isn't displaying value --he's just displaying 'thirst.' If he's going after other women, all that says is that he doesn't want to be around her, and he wants to get the attention of other women. That may annoy the woman, but it isn't going to suddenly make her feel more attraction for him.

Dread is only effective when women seek out the man. When a man goes out of his way to interact with other woman even though he's in a relationship (particularly if his SO/W is with him) then his actions are lame and desperate. When a man is out with his SO/W and other women are paying attention to him - then it's attractive and makes his SO/W feel a bit of dread. If you have to chase the attention and social proof - then it's not actually dread.

Keep in mind that (chasing women as a form of dread) only applies to men that are already in a relationship and married. Single men that flirt with other women have a far easier time making their plates feel dread. The plates haven't yet secured commitment, which is part of the reason seeing a man entertain the interest of other women is still effective. Single RP men with plates can absolutely use the plates against each other, or women they haven't yet plated to create dread.

A man that's married and in a relationship won't make his SO feel dread by employing that approach. It might work if he has completely transformed his physical appearance, displayed leadership skills etc and has successfully re-created the dynamic of the relationship. But men that have taken a back-seat in the leadership department, and displayed too many beta behaviors for a long time are not suddenly going to convince their SO's/W's that they are desirable, capable men.

That's one of the problems I have with a lot of MRP advice - those relationships have long histories, where the men failed to lead, and the women have no reason to think that their husbands are responsible, capable leaders. They want to go from janitor to CEO, and that doesn't happen over night. Everyone earns their reputation in relationships, whether it's good or bad.

Forced dread is transparent, and it's a lot harder to make your W/SO feel dread if you haven't been able to pull or maintain her attraction throughout the duration of your relationship.

[–]bicepsblastingstud 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A woman that observes her man actively pursuing other women doesn't feel dread because he isn't displaying value --he's just displaying 'thirst.'

Want to highlight this distinction, in particular.

[–]TempestTcup 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Dread is effective when it isn't forced or fabricated, and some women do require more dread than others. A woman that observes her man actively pursuing other women doesn't feel dread because he isn't displaying value --he's just displaying 'thirst.' If he's going after other women, all that says is that he doesn't want to be around her, and he wants to get the attention of other women. That may annoy the woman, but it isn't going to suddenly make her feel more attraction for him.

Dread like this tends to backfire, and doesn't make the wife more attracted. What does work well is women throwing themselves at him while he is paying no attention at all. It's hilarious how giggly I get when I point out a woman that keeps staring at him, doing the whole coy hair-flip thing :)

But yeah, a man chasing after women doesn't signal high SMV; ANYONE, high or low SMV can chase.

[–]CamusSeesSumac 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What does work well is women throwing themselves at him while he is paying no attention at all.

This is really true. My boyfriend never shows interest in other women, and women are all over him. He'll act distantly amused or pretend not to notice, and I love it.

[–][deleted]  (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

partially disagree. If a women sees women reacting to you positively its irrelevant that you initiated

It doesn't matter who initiated if it's a single woman/plate that sees the man interact successfully with other women. A wife/LTR of many years that witnesses her H/SO go up to other women is immediately going to be irritated and repulsed by his behavior - especially if the man hasn't sustained her attraction to him consistently up to that point. If the W/SO doesn't feel a lot of attraction to the man, his attempts to pursue other women will accomplish exactly the opposite of what he hopes. She will want to distance herself from him even more.

The fact that the man has to use "going up to other women/day game" immediately tells me that he isn't a natural - or he hasn't gotten to a point where he is treated as a natural by other women.

RPW users aren't chasing guys that 'have something to prove' - they're pursuing men that can create attraction naturally and display solid leadership skills.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]TempestTcup 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

a woman angry that her little beta is acting up and not lavishing only her with attention

No, she is horrified that he is chasing women, which shows low SMV. High SMV is when women chase HIM.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

i agree but most women have no clue whether or not someone is a natural.

This is RPW and a user that is RP/RPW aware that asked the initial question. Most RPWs are not dating RP male users or men that are aware of TRP. Every woman here is going to know about these things, furthermore, women are really good at picking up on BS. A man trying to 'toot' his own horn isn't going to fool the majority of women.

You can't trick a woman into thinking you have value over the long term unless you actually have value. Things fall apart if you're artificially increasing your value through tricks - because a woman will pick up on that eventually. When that happens, good luck trying to maintain peace and happiness.

your paragraph basically outlines a woman angry that her little beta is acting up and not lavishing only her with attention

Right, men that employ 'day game' and are in relationships that don't have a healthy dynamic to begin with - and they need tricks to try and create a scenario where their SO/W feels attraction for them. In cases where the dynamic is seriously imbalanced and the woman is running the show - she's not going to 'fall' for that kind of dread and suddenly see the man as more attractive and valuable. She's going to wonder why he's making a fool of himself and embarrassing her.

Within the context of marriages and long term relationships - it's incredibly difficult for the man to assert himself as a trustworthy leader and establish dominance if, from the start of that relationship, it's been the woman running the show. When women pursue RPW advice - relationships improve and the couple experiences more happiness. When MRP gives RP advice - things get worse. You can't convince your SO/W that you're desirable when she's known you for decades and you have kids together.

When attached men try to emulate single male behavior it's repulsive and weird.

[–]OccamsUsername 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nobody likes a try-hard.

[–]reelsies 0 points0 points [recovered] | Copy Link

It's the naturally masculine men that most RPW's are pursuing.

Masculinity isn't defined in a vacuum, though. And as far as testosterone goes, it doesn't seem like a rule that women prefer men with balding heads, thick beards, and very muscular bodies.

Being with an attractive man means that other women will notice, and being the wife/SO to such a man requires mindfulness and balance.

The fact that the woman is with the man in the first place makes him attractive, independent of the way he looks/acts.

I agree with everything else.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Masculinity isn't defined in a vacuum, though. And as far as testosterone goes, it doesn't seem like a rule that women prefer men with balding heads, thick beards, and very muscular bodies.

Masculine meaning the man has enough dominance to meet the woman's dominance threshold (thus allowing attraction to exist). Behavioral masculinity is separate and independent of testosterone levels. I agree that masculinity doesn't exist in a vacuum, but it is subject to the input and perceptions of other people. You can think you're the most attractive person in the world (or a woman can believe she's incredibly hot) - but it doesn't really mean a whole heck of a lot if everyone around you is slowly backing away and trying to pretend you don't exist.

The fact that the woman is with the man in the first place makes him attractive,

Not if he's with an unattractive woman. Men won't respect a guy with a hideous wife, just as a woman with an unattractive husband won't be inspiring the jealousy of the women around her. If the man has a beautiful wife, one that adores and respects him - then that man will have the respect of the other men he meets, and the desire of the women he encounters. He has the beautiful wife because he has enough value to land her. Just as the wife with the desirable husband has to have enough value as a woman to secure that man's commitment. No one envies ugly couples, or low value people (male or female).

Women that are tied to attractive men learn how to handle the attention they get from other women without going insane. Just as men with attractive women learn how to manage the attention other men show. Both people have to work to maintain boundaries and preserve the integrity of their relationship.

[–]llaym 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So in order to be able to quickly move on in the case of a divorce, you would disrespect and hurt your wife by practicing pick up artistry throughout the relationship?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Seems like a self fulfilling prophecy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I imagine the ideal scenario would be that the person doesn't know you're keeping your game strong. Rather than the whole market place bit.

The other user that responded had a good chunk in there about how they're using it once they've already ruined things, and thats probably where its more necessary imo, not that its really necessary at all. You know things are going to shit because you were weak from the start, so go ahead and fix up your game and prepare for the collapse.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think any (reasonable, commitment-worthy) man who's practicing this blunt variety of dread is doing so as a last-ditch effort at re-igniting some passion/respect in his relationship. You certainly don't -start- with that approach in order to improve aspects of your relationship.

I'm not saying it's right, but just trying to give you some perspective on why these men are doing what they're doing-- the relationship's at "divorce" level already at this point.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

cough mrp cough

[–]Red_Pill_Raskol 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"A woman shouldn't pursue a man that needs to 'remind' himself that he has outside options. A woman should pursue a man that wants a relationship with her even though he has other options. It's not an accomplishment to secure the commitment of a man no other woman wants."

This is is something about female nature that continues to baffle me. If you are enamored with him, why does it matter if a hundred or zero women are attracted to him? It seems like one of the baser lizard brain instincts, responsible for behaviors such as "keeping up with the Joneses", "I don't want to play with that toy unless you start playing with it", and boy idol teenie boppers' hysteria over a boy idol just because of teenie boppers' hysteria over a boy idol.

Can anyone explain what it's like to have social cues influencing your attraction to a man? Men do not work like this.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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